.25 ACP REVOLVER?

[Uncle_Lee]

I don't really need them.
I wouldn't shoot them if I had them.
I just hadn't seen any.

[MR_22]

Great pic, Unc!

So, I dunno about .25ACP. I still have a half of a box of it, but no longer have anything that shoots it. But in looking yesterday, I found 3 places with .25NAA in stock. That's pretty cool. Not cheap, but it's available. I should probably grab some when I have the chance. I no longer have a Guardian in .32NAA, but I have two Diamondback DB380's with .32NAA barrels (one a DB380 with .32NAA barrel and the other is a DB320 with a .380 barrel).

http://ammoseek.com/ammo/25naa

[RogueTS1]

Easily found online now at decent prices but unless buying somewhat in bulk the shipping will add to the price.

[MR_22]

Here's the .25ACP page at AmmoSeek.com. There seems to be plenty available.

http://ammoseek.com/ammo/25acp

[Uncle_Lee]

When I bought my 25NAA and 32NAA, I bought 500 rounds for each.

[MR_22]

When I bought my 25NAA and 32NAA, I bought 500 rounds for each.

Smart move. Probably when it was cheaper, too.

[Kentucky Kevin]

I had bought a .25 Berretta and realized that the ammo cost to much for me to get good and traded it in for a .22, unfortunately it is note 100%reliable which means it's a paper weight that fits in your pocket. I greatly prefer the NAA with holster grips, one in each pocket.

[MR_22]

I had bought a .25 Berretta and realized that the ammo cost to much for me to get good and traded it in for a .22, unfortunately it is note 100%reliable which means it's a paper weight that fits in your pocket. I greatly prefer the NAA with holster grips, one in each pocket.

Unfortunately, the .22LR version of the little Beretta is junk. The .22Short and the .25Auto were ok, but the design was never made to work with the longer .22LR shell casing and the model always suffered reliability problems because of it.

You probably would have been OK with the more expensive .25.

[Kentucky Kevin]

Still believe the mini's are the best solution. But those 21A's are accurate paper weights.

[boone123]

I have a couple of 21A  Berettas, and one will shoot mini mags just fine, and the other one,several brands.
Have a couple of 950BS models in 22 short that don't miss a beat.
I never carry any of them because in a case of fail to fire, they have no extractor so you can't just rack the slide to remove the bad shell, and keep on shooting.

[RogueTS1]

I have several of these small berettas in .22 and after a little feed ramp and chamber polishing they all work reliably with good ammo. I prefer the 6.35mm's I have for carry due to being centerfire and carrying more rounds in the mags but I feel perfectly safe carrying either as a BUG.

The manual of arms for a failure to fire is different though. Most of the time releasing the barrel tosses the cartridge far out of the way making it relatively easy to get back into action.

[boone123]

RogueTS1
Releasing the barrel does toss the bad shell out most of the time, but NOT always. Some of todays  22 ammo won't even go all the way into the chamber, let alone come back out.  For plinking it's no big deal, but on a midnight walk, no deal.

[Kentucky Kevin]

I had a Mink, that is a sexy gun.

[RogueTS1]

RogueTS1
Releasing the barrel does toss the bad shell out most of the time, but NOT always. Some of todays  22 ammo won't even go all the way into the chamber, let alone come back out.  For plinking it's no big deal, but on a midnight walk, no deal.

Gun smith time I would say............................. that and stick with the 6.35mm models.

[Surculus]

Here's the .25ACP page at AmmoSeek.com. There seems to be plenty available.

http://ammoseek.com/ammo/25acp

That's only just recently. Like Uncle Lee, I'd sporadically noodled around for some since the Great Ammo Drought began and 6 months ago, .25acp was even less available than .22WMR [which had been sold out EVERYWHERE since Sept. of 2013...]

[Surculus]

Grey, I can't remember if I officially suggested it, but I was thinking a .25 Magnum NAA would be appropriate. It could be in close to the same size as the current minis, but with a slightly elongated .25 ACP, which would give them a little more room to work with powders.

The best candidate for basic brass would likely be the 5.7x28mm FN: blow out the bottleneck, and size down the body so the rimless base diameter becomes the rim dia., and the case diameter will be sufficient for a 6.35mm [.25 call] bullet. Length can be shortened to something between 22lr and 22WMR case lengths, longer than 25acp, and pressure can be higher than the 25acp too.

[palerider]

Oh boy  its time for that  B movie great:  " The Return of the Zombie Thread" and this time I am not the one to raise it from the dead! I have been of fan of NAA branching  out to other calibers and waited with much anticipation for the .32 HR Mini in development in 2006-2007.  The fact is that since the announcement in Sandy's Soapbox  February 2007 "Update on the 32 H & R Magnum Mini-Revolver" where Sandy end that project (see below) this has been pretty much a dead issue. I and others (mostly I) have tried to resurrect it including suggesting using the BW/MM format instead of a break action design. This was what was sited in response, too much start up cost and too many players in that arena to make it profitable. Now the idea of boring out a existing platform may have some merit as what I was suggesting we new larger frame gun. May be we can get a new cartridge out the deal like a .25 Mag rimfire or centerfire though I think it unlikely  with the death of the .32 Federal Mag at the hands of " I deem you don't need another cartridge choice because you should be using a .357 maximum +P+ for everything"  crowd. But hey, hope spring eternal. I am with you on this effort, who know maybe this idea will fly ....

"Sandy's Soapbox     February 2007
Update on the 32 H & R Magnum Mini-Revolver

     As promised last month, I'm writing to advise the NAA community of the status of the long-running 32H&R project.

     At this point, we are suspending our efforts on the continuing development of this proposed new product. This does not necessarily mean that the project is dead, but only that it is no longer a priority. There is no schedule or anticipation it will be revived in the foreseeable future.

     Notwithstanding the substantial time and effort which has already been invested, we have determined that it would take still a great amount of both in order to make this product "market-ready". In reaching this decision, we feel that we may have made a mistake in our analysis of the market and that further investment would not be time or money well spent. Pretty simple. We apologize for whatever disappointment any of you might feel and appreciate the encouragement and support that many of you offered in this pursuit."

[adp3]

I would like to see NAA buy the rights to the old Budischowsky/Norton TP-70 and revive that great pocket pistol.  Those were great little autos in .22 LR and .25 ACP back in the 70's.  I had serial # 459 in the Budischowsky make and it was an outstanding pistol.  With CAM and MIM available they could be produced at a reasonable price.  With the TPH off the market and the Beretta Bobcat out of production (at least for now) they would dominate the .22 pocket auto market.

Best Regards,
ADP3

[Uncle_Lee]

I would like to see NAA buy the rights to the old Budischowsky/Norton TP-70 and revive that great pocket pistol.  Those were great little autos in .22 LR and .25 ACP back in the 70's.  I had serial # 459 in the Budischowsky make and it was an outstanding pistol.  With CAM and MIM available they could be produced at a reasonable price.  With the TPH off the market and the Beretta Bobcat out of production (at least for now) they would dominate the .22 pocket auto market.

Best Regards,
ADP3

I have one in .25 acp.
When I know I am going to shoot it, I put a Band-Aid across the web between my thumb and index finger to keep it from biting me.
If I don't, I have to let the hammer down to get it loose from my web. Blood every time.
I don't shoot it much any more. It is just for looking at.
For sure not a carry piece unless I am going to wear a Band-Aid all the time.
One shot then ouch, ouch, ouch.

[OV-1D]

 that's the biggest problem quick hand placement which I have NOT mastered as of yet and I'm not bothering to try anymore . Just like Unc_Lee my hand web will never look the same do to permanent scares . Its funny how we will keep wanting to shoot them though , kinda suicidal .   

[adp3]

uncle lee,
I know what you mean.  The TP-70 never chewed me up but I could never shoot a Walther TPH without two parallel cuts from the slide.  A beavertail would help either one of those pocket pistols be more user friendly then we could spend money on ammo instead of band-aids.

Best Regards,
ADP3

[Surculus]

This was what was sited in response, too much start up cost and too many players in that arena to make it profitable. Now the idea of boring out a existing platform may have some merit as what I was suggesting we new larger frame gun. May be we can get a new cartridge out the deal like a .25 Mag rimfire or centerfire though I think it unlikely  with the death of the .32 Federal Mag at the hands of " I deem you don't need another cartridge choice because you should be using a .357 maximum +P+ for everything"  crowd. But hey, hope spring eternal. I am with you on this effort, who know maybe this idea will fly ....

As always, the devil is in the details:

Coming out w/ a new size frame is a VBD [Very Big Deal], esp. with as small a player [pun intended] in the firearms field as NAA. If the existing product line can be adapted to a different chambering, that will remove much of the obstacle to entering a new market segment. Your comment about the Fed 327 notwithstanding, let's not forget that the timing of its introduction was singularly unfortunate, coinciding with the worst economic downturn in a generation and the election of a vocally anti-gun President which triggered [haha!] the biggest run on firearms and ammunition supplies since Komrade Klinton's 1st term. Bigger, in fact. So the excess production capacity to produce a new and unproven cartridge & firearms to shoot same went into producing more of the already popular firearms & fodder.

Contrast the very narrow niche of the .327 Federal, which only a small %age of the .32 H&Rmag  shooters said "We want MORE..." with the appeal of something in the .25 cal range, where you have an admittedly small but persistent # of hunters saying "We'd like something in the range of the old 25 Stevens, quieter than 22mag but more anchoring than 22lr" and those who would like something that fits in the 22lr size of firearm but with more authority [which the .25acp mostly definitely is NOT, given that JMB only designed it to overcome the feeding difficulties he was having w/ 22lr in the pocket automatic [Baby Browning. BTW, in case anyone was wondering, it didn't take much of a round to discourage would be villains back in the days before penicillin, since getting gut-shot by basically anything virtually guaranteed a lingering & painful death. Yeah, peritonitis sux.]

Anyway, 25 rimfire isn't likely to make a comeback, but as I pointed out above, it wouldn't take much utilizing 5.7x28mm centerfire basic brass as a jumping off point [which has the overwhelming advantage of "already in production" to its credit] to come up with a new "NAA 25rr"[1] that might be squeezed into the framework of existing production. I don't have anything against 25acp in NAA's little revolvers [well, except the Sidewinder] since you have to poke out the empties w/ a pin anyway, but the fact that you're better off from both a power and price standpoint to stick w/ 22lr kinda makes 25acp a silly option. Coming up with a new round that wont chamber in 25acp but has a shorter OAL than 22mag opens up several exciting options, such as optimization from short barrels w/o excessive flash and noise, etc. etc.

It's an intriguing prospect, is all. I doubt very much that NAA is going to follow up on it, esp. considering the resounding "Ho hum" the industry has delivered to the announcement of their bottleneck small auto rounds. But now would be superior timing to the introduction of the .327 Federal, since we're 7 years after the global financial meltdown and rimfire supplies are still marginal everywhere, while centerfire production has finally caught up with the demand in that arena & prices are starting to stabilize.

[1] ".25 revolver rimmed" if you will
[2] Hey! I just realized this was my 1st post w/o that annoying captcha to solve! Yippee! 

[palerider]

Surculus - Point taken and your correct! The problem is I don't notice we already had 4 pages of comments before I posted !  Not holding my breath but this is encouraging especially  since my post "Concecpt for New NAA Firearm" was shot down after about a page in 2013! So may be conditions are improving and timing is right so that NAA can take a look at this again..  I like you I would want something more than a .25ACP  or there's not a point to this exercise. At the risk of being flogged I am still rooting for a .32 offering but if I can get something with a little more umph that my .22mag and reloadability as well   I would be willing to get behind that effort! Not withstanding your comment about the lack of rimfire production but if the centerfire concept present too much a challenge I would settle for a .25 rimfire base of of one of the nail gun cartridges.

[cfsharry]

Surculus,
Are you an offshoot of 2GJ? 
Verbal semantics place you on same family tree.

[Surculus]

Surculus,
Are you an offshoot of 2GJ? 
Verbal semantics place you on same family tree.

What's a 2GJ? I'm Surculus on the CMP, RFC & THR forums. Used to post under Myscreant on the rec.guns newsgroup back before the dot-bomb when All Bore was still claiming to have invented the internet... 

[cfsharry]

Welcome to this wee backwater forum.

[PaducahMichael]

Surculus,
Are you an offshoot of 2GJ? 
Verbal semantics place you on same family tree.

What's a 2GJ? I'm Surculus on the CMP, RFC & THR forums. Used to post under Myscreant on the rec.guns newsgroup back before the dot-bomb when All Bore was still claiming to have invented the internet... 

Don't worry, Surculus, that was a compliment. Nothing to be ashamed of! And welcome - we appreciate your expertise.

[Surculus]

Welcome to this wee backwater forum.

Thanks!

[Surculus]

Don't worry, Surculus, that was a compliment. Nothing to be ashamed of! And welcome - we appreciate your expertise.

Thanks. Can't say I'm an "expert" at anything, but still have a somewhat functional wetware[1] database [altho', the CRS gets worse every day.]


[1] Yawns are the 1st computer virus, they just require wetware to run instead of hardware. 

[Uncle_Lee]

"Depends" are good wetware.

I miss Chopprs.

[stantheman86]

I have two Beretta Bobcat 21a's, one in .22 and one in .25.

The .22 will run all day on Stinger, Velocitor and AR Tactical .22. I put nearly 100 AR Tacticals through it with no cleaning this past summer...never bobbled once. These are NOT range guns and theres really no reason to "train" with them, theyre shoot and scoot belly guns made for last ditch fight for your life scenarios. Theyre light and small but were made obsolete by stuff like the LCP .380 and others. Bear in mind the design goes back to the 50's with the Minx, Beretta just updated the design for the 950 and 20-21 series. Options were few for real compact pistols years ago....now everyone makes them.

My .25 Beretta holds 8+1 with the MecGar mag and runs fine with Fiocchi FMJ. I carry it often. People denigrate .25 as useless but its not a combat sidearm and if I need it Im going for the throat and brain....show me anyone on any kind of drugs who wants a piece of lead however small it is....moving at 700  fps hitting them in the temple at contact range.....makes for a good "act like Im crapping my pants heres my wallet/keys oops pow pow" gun lol

FWIW .22 WMR is a vastly superior stopper to .25, I carry the .25 Beretta pretty much just for nostalgia. I had an LCP , I gave it to my Mom because I usually carry either my SP101, one of the Berettas or my .22 LR mini.

When I get my PUG and .32 Guardian, Im thinking those will become my EDC go to guns, with the Pug doing backup for the Guardian. Carrying heavy guns like my SP in the summer wears thin after a while....

[SteveZ-FL]

I have two Beretta Bobcat 21a's, one in .22 and one in .25.

The .22 will run all day on Stinger, Velocitor and AR Tactical .22. I put nearly 100 AR Tacticals through it with no cleaning this past summer...never bobbled once. These are NOT range guns and theres really no reason to "train" with them, theyre shoot and scoot belly guns made for last ditch fight for your life scenarios. Theyre light and small but were made obsolete by stuff like the LCP .380 and others. Bear in mind the design goes back to the 50's with the Minx, Beretta just updated the design for the 950 and 20-21 series. Options were few for real compact pistols years ago....now everyone makes them.

My .25 Beretta holds 8+1 with the MecGar mag and runs fine with Fiocchi FMJ. I carry it often. People denigrate .25 as useless but its not a combat sidearm and if I need it Im going for the throat and brain....show me anyone on any kind of drugs who wants a piece of lead however small it is....moving at 700  fps hitting them in the temple at contact range.....makes for a good "act like Im crapping my pants heres my wallet/keys oops pow pow" gun lol

FWIW .22 WMR is a vastly superior stopper to .25, I carry the .25 Beretta pretty much just for nostalgia. I had an LCP , I gave it to my Mom because I usually carry either my SP101, one of the Berettas or my .22 LR mini.

When I get my PUG and .32 Guardian, Im thinking those will become my EDC go to guns, with the Pug doing backup for the Guardian. Carrying heavy guns like my SP in the summer wears thin after a while....

In like form, have the counterpart Taurus PT-22 and PT-25.  They work well and eat everything.  However, sizewise in .25ACP my 60-year-old Baby Browning is still the better pistol for many reasons. 

Agree that the .22WMR is an overall better round, and because of that my NAA 1 1/4 .22WMR is my 24/7 carry regardless of whatever else may be taken along. 

[stantheman86]

I like the DAO action of the Taurus PT's and I actually tried to buy a PT25 poly from a GunBroker dealer but I ended up putting a Glock 42 on layaway with him instead. Id still get a PT25 poly or metal frame if I could find one at a gun shop for a fair price, Im getting tired of the GB transactions.

I lost some faith in .22 LR for defense when 2 days ago my Dad said he put a .22 in a raccoon that was attacking a cat on the back porch and the raccoon still managed to creep away leaving a small blood trail.....In years past Ive also put numerous LR's into groundhogs only to have them run back into their hole.

.25 may not be much better but its at least more reliable. Fiocchi seems fairly hot so I just stay with that. If I shoot the .25 Beretta once a year its a lot, I just clean it about monthly. I dont think these guns were designed to take 1,000's of rounds so once I got them broken in  and feeding properly with ammo they like I didnt want to over stress them:)  Im a wheelgun nut anyway the Berettas are just stylish little carry tools.

[Uncle_Lee]

Hey Stan, watch that cat.
Coons can carry rabies. It would not normally attack a cat.

[stantheman86]

The cat seems OK, he's an outside cat my parents kind of adopted but don't want in the house. I think the raccoon was just kind of preparing to attack the cat when my Dad shot him. A .22 WMR probably would have dropped the raccoon, but none of us has anything in WMR, my Mini Master only has a LR cylinder...... any bigger than .22 Mag might have damaged something outside.

As far as a .25 ACP Mini it would be a neat addition to many of our NAA collections but would have minimal defense advantages. It would also be tough to cram 5 .25's into that cylinder and I don't see NAA retooling to make a .25 frame.

CCI makes dedicated .22 WMR defensive loads, along with Hornady and others that are probably as reliable as a center fire at this point. So many people are buying .22 WMR's like the Ruger LCR and the Taurus stuff for carry that we now have premium grade .22 WMR defense ammo.  The closest you'll get for defensive .22 LR ammo is CCI Stinger, Velocitor or anything else by CCI that comes in the plastic boxes. I only carry Velocitor in my LR Mini and have recently put Stingers back in my .22 Beretta.

.25 is very anemic for defense, it was designed I believe for the Colt 1908 pocket pistol. It was the smallest case that John Browning could fit a centerfire primer into. Also bear in mind this round was developed over 100 years ago for use in (at the time) expensive little micro pistols usually sold to well heeled "gentleman" as burglar or mugger repellants and people didn't care as much about stopping power for a gun you would probably never use anyway. It was a gun you could drop in a vest or coat pocket and not be inconvenienced by a large bulky .38 revolver.  The same was the case with the little S&W .32 Short revolvers, they had pretty much 0 stopping power but might give a sneak thief  second thoughts if you shot him in the head with one.

The .25 hung on when tons of cheap .25 pot metal pistols flooded the market because the round was weak enough that a cheap gun might hold together for 20 rounds. Raven and Jimenez Arms and others still make terrible quality .25 Autos that you  can pick up at gun shows for $80. I doubt you get get one to shoot a whole mag without jamming. The Beretta is a gem compared to these guns. The Taurus is good too, I think the PT25 is the only currently made .25 worth anything these days, Beretta told me they have temporarily  dropped the Bobcat but make some in batches here and there mostly in .22, and they have no plans to resume normal production since sales are nearly nonexistent. The poly frame micro guns and Taurus kind of killed off the Bobcat. I think the .32 Tomcat is still in production.

I would love to see a "medium and large frame" NAA that's about the size of the old S&W .32 and .38 break top single actions, and chamber them in .32 ACP and .380 but that's a pipe dream.