.25 ACP REVOLVER?

[redhawk4]

If you look at the real world ballistics from NAA's own site you will see the performance of a 50 grain 25 ACP  betters 22 mag from a from a Mini Mag and 22 LR even more so.

http://northamericanarms.com/ball_mag18

http://northamericanarms.com/ball_lr18

If you take into account that a much shorter cylinder, but longer barrel could be used on 25 ACP revolver and still be as compact as 22 Mag then 25 ACP could give you better performance still with the longer barrel. Note the figures you quote are from test barrels with no cylinder gap which are markedly different from real world figures.

Fiocchi also quote their 50 grain at 800 fps. As I said before little or no development has been put in to 25 ACP in recent history and it would certainly be possible to improve on the standard loads. To my knowledge Winchester does not produce the most powerful 25 ACP load in 50 gr, just one to the standard which is 760 fps.

[Dinadan]

Redhawk - I do not see the 25 ACP stats on NAA's ballistics page. Are you certain that you are not looking at .25 NAA stats?


Cfsharry - I guess I did not look at the BBTI site before I made my posts: that may have been before I knew that it existed. Oh well, I guess we have to go back to Uncle Lee's idea and make it a .32 ACP.

[redhawk4]

Redhawk - I do not see the 25 ACP stats on NAA's ballistics page. Are you certain that you are not looking at .25 NAA stats?


Cfsharry - I guess I did not look at the BBTI site before I made my posts: that may have been before I knew that it existed. Oh well, I guess we have to go back to Uncle Lee's idea and make it a .32 ACP.

i was looking at the 22 LR and 22 Mag performance from the NAA revolvers compared to 800 fps with a 50 gr from my Beretta 950, or those figures quoted from manufacturers for 25 ACP that is from a 2" barrel not from a rifle barrel as per the 22's.

[cfsharry]

Unless I am reading them wrong, the tables provided by NAA show velocity but not energy transmitted. If you use bullet weight and velocity to determine muzzle energy you will find the .25 is not only inferior to the .22 Mag but the LR as well. 
There is no better site, in my opinion, than BBI when it comes to objective reporting of comparative ballistics both from a methodology standpoint and testing of real world guns.

[RogueTS1]

I'm late to the party here, but have often wondered my self why NAA doesn't do a Mini in 25 ACP. With the right ammo you can get 22 mag performance from a potentially more reliable centerfire round and could have a lot more compact gun, or a longer barrel because the cartridge and consequently the cylinder length could be so much less.

25 ACP is a round that has been forgotten about because of it's small size, but also because of the rumor mill of it being less powerful than 22 LR which originated with people erroneously comparing 22 LR rife ballistics against 25 ACP rather than 22 LR ballistics from short handgun barrel. A lot of people have been killed by the so called "non lethal" 25 round. I saw a documentary of a real case recently where 4 people in the same room, 3 of them Highschool football players were all murdered with a 25 ACP semi auto, non of them just got angry and attacked the shooter as is often claimed for this round.

What is a shame is that because it's become the "forgotten round" it's pricey to buy and also there seems to have been zero ammo development done. Some of the European manufacturers seem to have the best muzzle velocity, but I'm sure if someone was to revisit development with the latest powders etc. another 100 fps of muzzle velocity could easily be found.

I would love to see some ammo development on the 6.35mm round. I bet with a little research the 6.35mm could equal or better the best modern day .22LR ammo and give us a bit better center fire reliability.

[redhawk4]

[/quote]

I would love to see some ammo development on the 6.35mm round. I bet with a little research the 6.35mm could equal or better the best modern day .22LR ammo and give us a bit better center fire reliability.
[/quote]

Exactly, I don't think the standard has changed much since 1906, or whenever it was introduced, other than going to a 50gr from the original 51gr bullet. It could also best the 22 mag in short barrel guns too.

[grayelky]

It would be most interesting to see modern powders used to develop what ever potential the .25ACP may have. The problem is all of the older pistols, and the newer pistols made to accommodate the old technology/pressure levels of the original .25 ACP loadings. Too much chance to get sued. CorBon uses a lighter bullet to achieve their velocities. I am willing to bet the pressure levels of their load is not near what it could be. To truly get the performance potential, I suspect the lawyers would insist on a change being made to the case so it would not fit in the current .25 ACP chambers, and a new name given. This how we got the .44 mag and the .357 mag, to name two.

[TeeJay37]

Grey, I can't remember if I officially suggested it, but I was thinking a .25 Magnum NAA would be appropriate. It could be in close to the same size as the current minis, but with a slightly elongated .25 ACP, which would give them a little more room to work with powders.

[redhawk4]

I have read that some of the 25 ACP "anemic myth" also comes from some of the cheap and nasty guns made in that caliber. Some had such poor tolerances and others wore and corroded so badly that a lot of velocity was lost in the crappy barrels to the point where the round couldn't even shoot through thin metal etc.

On my Beretta 950 it seems there is plenty of metal in the barrel to withstand some extra pressure, but I can understand how based on the above that there are plenty of guns out there that perhaps shouldn't be shooting normal pressure rounds. If you look at other calibers, quite a few now have some extra "oomph"  still at stock pressure due to the developments in faster burning powders etc.

A 25 magnum isn't a bad idea, because like 38 spl, 44 spl and 45 colt most of these older standards have enough room in the case for modern powders to "hot rod" them substantially, you just need a gun to handle the extra pressure and a cartridge that cannot be put into the guns built back in the day. Having said that, there are ammo companies who produce 44 mag ammo that is labelled to only be used in certain revolvers like Ruger and certain Lever action rifles and also 45 colt ammo.

[TeeJay37]

I would imagine it would be akin to shooting +p in non +p firearms. You just need to know what your gun can handle. I doubt there is a +p designation for 25, so the manuals may not even mention it, though.

[redhawk4]

The Saami pressure max for 22lr is 24,000 and for the 25 ACP  25000. Comparing the two side by side the 22 LR Winchester Super X has a shorter case but is 0.087" longer overall than the 25ACP. Extending the 25 ACP to the same overall length as the 22 LR could give you the "25 Mag".

The thing that struck me most comparing the two side by side, something I'd never done before,  is the huge difference in the quality of the ammo, the thicker case, proper jacked bullet and huge center primer of 25 ACP put it in a very different class - although given the price of 25 ACP it certainly should.

[TwoGunJayne]

Don't forget we can reload .25 and change the face of the game... can't do that with rimfire (easily or safely.)

Now where's a "high quality, long barrel .25 +P" pistol for me to tote?

800 fps and 50 grains from a mousegun? Nah, we can fix that!

[Uncle_Lee]

I just ran across this:
Magsafe Defender .25 acp

22 grain bullet      1750 FPS        150 Muzzle energy.

[howl]

The .25 ACP was developed because John Browning wanted to make a .22lr pistol that would feed reliably. Putting a .25 ACP in a revolver would be un-inventing the wheel.

[Uncle_Lee]

I don't want one because it is practical or it has super ballistics.

I want a pair of them because they would be different.

I would rather have a pair of .32 acp minis but would settle for .25 acp minis.       

[TwoGunJayne]

I'm with Lee. I've got the "normal stuff" already. I'm looking for something WEIRD!

[Dinadan]

I was thinking about he evolution of .32 and .38 ammo. How we went from .38 Short colt to .38 Long Colt to .38 Special to .357 Magnum. Each time a more powerful round appeared the case was lengthened so that the newer ammo could not be fired from the old guns, but the old style ammo could still be fired from the new guns. Same thing with S&W .32, S&W .32 Long, .32 H&R Magnum, and .327 Magnum. Maybe it is time to start .25 on the same route. As Teejay suggested on January 15, we could lengthen the case a bit. Just enough that current autos could not shoot the new ammo, thus avoiding the danger of blowing up old guns with the new .25 NA Long ammo. In a way this is a solution in search of a problem. On the other hand, with so many folks carrying now the laws have eased up, this really could be the time for a new, very small, revolver round. There seems to be a considerable number of people who buy a .38 or larger revolver and fairly quickly realize that they are just not going to carry a gun that big on a daily basis.

[TeeJay37]

There would be plenty of room to lengthen the case by a good bit. AND Speer already makes a 35gr Gold Dot, so that parts already taken care of.

Here is a side-by-side from Gunnuts:



And here is a quick comparison I worked up in CAD, based on the dimensions on the corresponding wiki article:

[gunfitrip]

Dinadan, I think you're right.  Maybe a .28-.30 with a straight walled, rimmed case 50-70 grain bullet range with 900-1000 fps velocity.  Length maybe the size of .22 mag bullet.  With metalurgy what it is today at NAA and Ruger I bet the pressures could be sustained.  It could be a NAA unique round.  As it is, the smallest truly reloadable round is the .32 and it is well over 100 years old. With all the new bullet styles for self-defense, a Black Widow or Pug configuration or maybe even a Sidewinder could hold it even if it went to 4 rounds.  5 rounds of course preferable.  It would be reloadable.  That's the shooter's benefit with ammo the way it is.  Obviously small pistol primer.

[grayelky]

On the current .22 Mag frame, I do not think there would be room for 5 rounds. The case heads almost touch now. By the time you allow for the bigger diameter of the .25 case and enough cylinder wall thickness to contain the pressure, you will be down to 4 rounds. The barrel will also have to be larger in diameter. This will very likely mean the frame will need to be made a little bigger to accomadate the larger diameter barrel and still have enough thickness for safety and longevity. IF the frame would need to be made bigger, may as well make it 5 rounds, AND shorten it appropriately. Maybe end up with a 2" barrel having an overall length of the current 1 5/8" barreled mag. This would also help achieve that 900 FPS goal.

A 50-70 grain bullet at 900 FPS in an 8 oz revolver will be very interesting, not only from a self defense stand point, but also about the time the bullet leaves the barrel!

There is a pretty decent chance a .25 Magnum may catch on, IF:
A) the performance level discussed above is achieved with a resonable pressure level
B) the firearm is kept to a minimum, ie: NAA sized grip frame, and the frame only enlarged as is necessary
C) the ammo companies get on board and produce the ammo in self defense and reduced power levels for practice, along with quantities that will give the consumer confidence they can find the ammo
D) will there be enough of a demand to make it finacially feasible

The last half of "C" is going to be a problem. They cannot keep up with current demand. Why will they want to tool up for a new caliber they cannot produce enough to meet demand? As to "D", I have no clue.

[stantheman86]

I have both a .25 and .22 Beretta Bobcat, the .22 makes more sense for defense but the .25 is more reliable and has a +2 larger capacity.

I don't waste time with HP's in my .25 and my Beretta won't feed XTP's anyway. I stick with hot Fiocchi FMJ to at least give some penetration. If I had to use my .25 in defense I would definitely go for brain cavity, face or throat hits. .25's center mass are a waste and will probably just get you killed.

The same goes for my .22 LR mini, if at all possible I'm putting that first round in the BG's brain since these are point blank last ditch defense weapons.

FWIW .25 ACP revolvers do exist, mostly old Belgian made " Velo Dog" type DA mini revolvers. I've seen a couple on GunBroker.

You're better off with a .22 WMR loaded with Gold Dot or another premium load made for defense and thus made from better components.

As far as the unreliability of rimfire rounds, I've fired 1,000's of Stingers over the years through various handguns and never had one fail to pop. Use the good stuff for defense and you'll be fine. Misfires are more common with cheap bulk pack .22 like Thunderbolts that are made for plinking and use the cheapest primers.

[TwoGunJayne]

...what Stan said.

[redhawk4]

Stan - How does a 22 make more sense for self defense than a 25 auto? I don't see 22 ammo that can push a 50 grain bullet at better velocities than 25 acp does from a 2 inch barrel, and then in 25 acp you have a proper jacketed bullet that will penetrate better. As you do say the 25 is likely more reliable too in feeding and being centerfire.

I rarely carry just 25 acp, only once in a while when that's all that is allowed, but a big part of that strategy is the ability to fire 9 rounds from my Beretta 950 in a very short space of time, that requires total reliability of function, I would not trust that task to 22 LR in a similar gun, agreed top quality ammo rather than bulk is much more reliable with regard to firing, but you will never get the feed reliability of the semi rimmed 25 acp with a proper FMJ bullet IMO.

[Rapalyea]

Test Post Photo .25 v Black Widow Photo

[Rapalyea]

OK That worked.  Here are a few comments on the Baby Browning .25

1) Really small.
2) Fits my hand oddly well.
3) Reliable. Several hundred rounds not one failure of any kind.
4) Not very powerful. Not quite two inches in the same pine the Black Widow did three with both Mag and LR 60gr even though full metal jacket.
5) Worst safety ever created by mankind. Can actually reverse itself so cut mine off. Never ever carry this striker fired weapon with a round in chamber.
6) Only good as deception backup to a backup. Not hard to stuff it in a 100's cigarette case and stuff that into a leather holder showing the orange out the sides.

[Rapalyea]

SOMETHING DIFFERENT take one

Casual 2000 LR .22 mini DAO folding trigger mini.  I bought one of these about ten years ago. Really cool to look at. Entirely useless as a fire arm. The trigger was WAY heavy. WAY rough, and WAY stacked. It came in a presentation box and is really just a collectors item. I could not find a comparison graphic, but it was also Way small.

At the time people were having the same discussion: When do we get a .32 ACP. Well, NAA small revolvers are shootable.

[redhawk4]

OK That worked.  Here are a few comments on the Baby Browning .25

1) Really small.
2) Fits my hand oddly well.
3) Reliable. Several hundred rounds not one failure of any kind.
4) Not very powerful. Not quite two inches in the same pine the Black Widow did three with both Mag and LR 60gr even though full metal jacket.
5) Worst safety ever created by mankind. Can actually reverse itself so cut mine off. Never ever carry this striker fired weapon with a round in chamber.
6) Only good as deception backup to a backup. Not hard to stuff it in a 100's cigarette case and stuff that into a leather holder showing the orange out the sides.

What ammo are you using in your Browning? something must be wrong if performance is that poor.

[TwoGunJayne]

Any thoughts on the NAA Guardian in .25 NAA? It should address the reliability, power, and penetration issues of a .25.

They're really not that big, the same size as the NAA Guardian 32 acp (which I like a whole lot.)

[redhawk4]

I think the necked down 25 NAA case would cause issues in a revolver, similar to the problems they had with the .17 guns. When fired the necked part of the shell expands lengthening the case and pushing it back to jam the cylinder. This doesn't happen in a closed breach design like a bolt action rifle because the case is fully supported by the chamber shape and dimensions.

[redhawk4]

I read where this in a thread where someone had fired various 25 auto's and checked the muzzle velocities.

"Velocities vary greatly in .25acp; Baby Brownings or Bernadelli VB get around 700+ with PMC ball and a loose barrel 1908 Colt usually won't get much better. In a new Beretta 950 or 21 the velocity is 100 to 150 fps greater in my testing. Colt Jr.s and are in the middle as our good shape Walthers and such. Yup a tight barrel .25acp can get over 900 fps with Geco ball and they go right thru a pressure treated fir 2x4 or full 2" thick heart redwood.

It does seem there are big variations between different pistols in their performance based on a number of tests that people have done, where results have varied a lot when switching to a different pistol.

[cfsharry]

red,
Where did you get that 900 f/s number from?  In checking Gecos website I see a 49 gr. hardball but at something like 682 f/s.  That would translate to a wee bit more than 50 f/lbs of energy. 
As always, it is possible I did not understand something I read.

[redhawk4]

red,
Where did you get that 900 f/s number from?  In checking Gecos website I see a 49 gr. hardball but at something like 682 f/s.  That would translate to a wee bit more than 50 f/lbs of energy. 
As always, it is possible I did not understand something I read.

I couldn't work that one out either, I did the same thing and went to their site and converted the meters per second to FPS getting the same result you did, which is slower than normal for a 50gr by 100 fps, so I did wonder if it was a misprint on their site. I don't know if he was using a different type they once had available (lighter bullet) or whether they were actual figures for this load from his gun.

You can read the whole sage here, while it's only the internet, it did seem like some sensible comments from a lot of the folks, rather than people making silly claims just to bolster their arguments:

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-696027.html

[RogueTS1]

Baby Browing 6.35mm with a new Swiss screw turned stainless barrel ought to be tight enough to get some higher velocities. Hornady lists their 6.35mm at 900fps at the muzzle.

[cfsharry]

Same old, same old.  Lighter bullet at higher velocity. The energy produced is not much better than standard loading and still less than .22 Mag. from same length barrel. 
The  Hornady round does make a bigger hole and has been designed specifically as a self defense round so that probably is worth something. 
Neither caliber, in my mind at least, is a reliable man stopper to be carried as a primary self defense weapon. If it's' all you've got, for whatever reason, you've got to make do and hope for the best.

[redhawk4]

If you look at the increased performance of almost every popular caliber, that is achieved with stock pressure by the specialist ammo manufacturers like Corbon, Buffalo Bore, Double Tap etc. there is definitely more than can be gained from 25 acp. Every other round introduced in the early 1900's has something better performing available in 2014, probably because there are faster burning powders available better suited to short pistol barrels. I personally think given how quickly 25 auto disappears off the shelves round here there would certainly be a ready market for a premium 25 auto round with just a little more oomph. 22 ammo has seen some development since 1906 or whatever, I think it's time someone brought 25 auto up to date. It's never going to be a great SD round, but when that's all you have for whatever reason another 50 or 100 fps could make all the difference.

It should be borne in mind that NAA quotes a figure of only 687 fps for a 50 grain bullet from a 1 1/8 mini mag which is the closest barrel length to a small semi auto, given that the barrel length includes the chamber in a pistol. A good quality and good condition pistol will give real world figures of over 750 fps for 25 acp. I've seen 50 gr White box Winchester chrono at about 815 fps from a Beretta 950. If you go to the 1 5/8"  barrel they quote 727 fps for a 50 grain. So 25 acp is capable of producing 22 mag performance when we are talking about a shorter barrel length mini, which is what would be the real competition for something like a little semi auto pistol. Even for the mini master with a 4" barrel they are only getting 808 fps for a 50 grain bullet in 22 mag. So by NAA's own ballistic information 25 acp can hold it's head high. When my BT or Beretta 950 were my deep concealment options I considered them  ballistic equals, any argument revolved purely around 5 shots in a revolver versus 9 in a semi auto and all the well known pluses and minuses that accompany that debate.

It's my opinion that NAA could produce a revolver with a short cylinder for 25 acp, and an equivalent frame length and then add the length  saved to the barrel, to produce better ballistics than currently achieved by their 22 mag offerings, in a similar length package. This would be particularly so if they had an ammo manufacturer on board who would give the cartridge a modern makeover employing the best of today's powders and technology. Whether anyone would buy one (other than Uncle Lee)  is another question, but I believe it's technically possible. It might even be possible to make it using the existing 22 lr cylinder and mini frame with bigger grips and a longer barrel attached.