.25 NAA

[subgunner]

Anyone reload the .25 NAA ?, Data ?. Would love to hear your comments.

[kwb]

I'm new to this forum and don't know as of yet how to PM another member or how to quote another post.

   

   I've got a pdf on Bullseye powder for this round. I'll take advice on how to post it. Thanks.

[wildtim]

you can upload it as an attachment to a post by clicking the button "upload attachment", it is located on the bottom of the screen next to the button marked "Preview/Post".

   

   You can PM another member by clicking on their name to open their profile, you will find a link to PM them there.

[kwb]

Thanks for the help,Tim. I'm having difficulty because I'm getting an open error message when trying to attach a small pdf file. So far it's a no-go.

[westerly1965]

I don't know if you can attach a pdf or not I haven't tried that.

[kwb]

Since there is a pdf file posted in another .25/.32 NAA thread,it has to be possible. The trouble may just be on my end. Hopefully a Moderator will see this thread and give me an assist.

[westerly1965]

Kwb honestly thats not very likely.  They don't do much for moderation on this board.  If you can find a link for Sandy or Topgun you could PM them and see if they get back to you.

[kwb]

Thanks for the heads up. No biggie as to me posting the file anyway.  

   

   I'm learning and learning to appreciate this forum a whole lot. I'm coming from a telescope forum with well over 10,000 KWB postings that is moderator heavy,to the detriment of that forum IMHO. Any little hint of politics or firearms and you are cut off at the pass. Posts get deleted on a regular basis and posters are warned,then banned quickly for repeat "offences".

   

   I like the casual atmosphere here. Be nice,play fair and state your opinion. Very well done indeed.

   

   Kenny

[bobt]

From what I've read, the .32 NAA seems to have a better following than the .25 NAA.  

   From what I've read and figured, the .25 NAA has an advantage on penetration and the .32 acp (its parent cartridge) has the advantage on momentum. With limited availability of commercial loadings the .32 acp seems to be a better choice for many shooters.

[bobt]

Ooops. I meant to say, limited availability of commercial loadings "for the .25 NAA" the .32 acp seems to be a better choice for many shooters.

[redhawk4]

Firstly I'm not a fan of new or oddball calibers. That's not to say there's anything wrong with a new caliber, the problem is that most practical calibers were invented a long time ago and the newer ones rarely bring enough difference to the table to justify going out on a limb and battling with often overpriced and scarce ammo.

   

   I'm not sure commercially, despite the actual performance, many will ever be drawn to the idea of a 25 caliber SD bullet. The other problem with the NAA calibers is you get involved in the lighter bullet with more energy, versus the heavier slower moving bullet debate, that never seems to have an answer that satisfies everyone and is the source of more lengthy and tedious arguments than politics and religion combined. I just don't see 25 NAA or 32 NAA becoming mainstream, something you'll pick up in Walmart.  

   

   Personally I'd rather stick to 32 acp or 380 than either of the NAA offerings. Others like such odditities and have the benefit of reloading on their side, so it could certainly work for them.

   

   Having said the above, I'd still be interested in what results can be obtained by those hand loading, compared to the factory offerings that are available. Hornady's 35 gr XTP in 25acp can do about 996 fps from a Beretta 950, NAA are quoting a usefully faster 1200 fps, can this be replicated by the handloader. Shame nobody seems to have looked at a +P 25 acp round either (except Magsafe, not sure what to make of that one), I think that caliber got left behind by the number of cheap 25acp pistols on the market back in the day.

[kwb]

Everyone to their own preferrences. In 1991,I took to the .40 S&W like a duck takes to water,despite the newness of the cartridge. Last week I purchased what has become my 8th pistol in this caliber over a 20 year time span.

   

   Reloading certaining enhances the field opportunity and probably helps color my disdain for the regular 32 and 380 calibers in particular. IMO and IME the 32 is near a pipsqueek loading when fired in a 4 inch barreled pistol,then lose an inch and a half barrel with the Guardian pistol and I lose enthusiasm real fast. I don't get warm and fuzzy about the .380 and in a shorter barrel gun I get nervous very quickly. I'll pass. This is why I bought the .22 Mag Mini Revolver.  

   

   I would never reload a bottleneck catridge like the 2 NAA chamberings due to not being able to use carbide dies.

   

   As to NAA claims,I remain dubious as to this being substantiated and in particular by reloading in actuality. I've seen one user video featuring 2 shots, one from the .25 and one from the .32 over a chronograph. Though far from definitive,the factory Corbon .25 at 1115 fps and the .32 at 1075 fps seem to be all a reloader could possibly hope for from a velocity standpoint and once again,from my perspective seem overly optimistic as in achievement in less than an all-out max load. WSF powder holds maybe the possible key as to the powder I know of that could reach 1150 to 1200 fps.

   

   Given my druthers,make mine the .22 Magnum in the Guardian. Maybe and likely near 1300 fps in the auto with a longer barrel by almost an inch vs the Mini-revolver with a load like the CCI TNT.

   

   I would agree these factory wildcats will probably never catch on with the public at large,though I still like them and commend NAA for willing to think outside the box. Please someday chamber this pistol in .22 Mag. Rimfire pistols risk reliabilty versus a centerfire but that would be one risk I'd love to take.

[westerly1965]

Ken I am totally with you on the .40 S&W absolutely love that caliber.  It is one of my two main calibers .380 being the other one.  You might find you like the Guardian in .380 if you shot it then again you might not.  I like it simply because its the most bang in the smallest package making it easy to conceal in almost any situation.

   

   All that said I would jump on a .22 Mag Guardian faster then you could say bang.

[redhawk4]

I was going, to mention the 40 S&W as being the most successful entry of a new round in recent history. I think a niche was created, that it slotted right into.

   

   "Maybe and likely near 1300 fps in the auto with a longer barrel by almost an inch vs the Mini-revolver"

   

   No that would not be the case, given that the 22 mag round is well over a quarter inch longer than 380acp (I'm assuming you're thinking more a Guardian 32, but I don't have one to compare, although the issues are the same as 32 and 380 are similar in overall length) you would need a bigger grip size to take the mag and a number of other mods for it to work. Given that a pistol barrel length includes the chamber the effective barrel length would be about 1 1/8" given the current Guardian 380 dimensions, but you would have to have an even shorter barrel because of the bigger magazine well, so it would end up closer to 3/4". When you consider the velocities that could be achieved from such a short barrel, it seems 25acp already gives better performance in a smaller package like the small Beretta pistols or you may as well stick with 22LR to avoid the problems created by the longer 22 mag cartridge. Don't forget that 25acp performance is already better than 22 mag from a 1 1/8" barrel and is a little better or at worse equal to it in a 1 5/8" barrel.

   

   If, and I mean if, there really is a demand for pistols in such a caliber it seems a reworking of 25acp with modern powders and maybe a bit more pressure to give 1,000 fps + with a 50gr bullet would be the route. The cartridge could be lengthened slightly to give an overall length similar to 32. Center fire reliability and feeding in a much shorter cartridge than 22 mag. This round could then also be used in the mini revolvers to give better than 22 mag performance in an LR length cylinder making for a smaller gun or the possibility for more barrel length and even better ballistics.

   

   I also note that NAA may be cheating a little on their quoted 25NAA performance since they quote a 2" test barrel which if that's what they mean is likely actually a 2" barrel as opposed to the Guardian25's effective barrel length of only just over 1" if you allow for the chamber. Test barrels always seems to show higher FPS than actual handguns when you see both quoted. Again on 32NAA they use a 2.5" test barrel so the differences may not be quite as big as they might appear looking at just the balllistics quoted.  

     

   

[wildtim]

I would question that 25 acp is a better performer than 22 mag even out of a short barrel.  The best performance I've seen is 35 gr at about 1000 FPS or pretty much exactly what you get out of .22mag.

   

   Now that there are actually some sort barrel specific rounds in .22 mag I expect to see even better performance out of it.

   

   Other than that right on.  I'd love to see some real loadings for this little round I think this is what NAA was trying to do with the .25NAA, first its got to catch on.  Unfortunately with 9mm's getting nearly as small as .380s from only a decade ago and .380s smaller than the traditional .25 I have a feeling the .25acp and NAA are both pretty much dead ends.

[kwb]

NAA chronographed both barrel length Mini revolvers and the CCI 30gr Maxi-Mag + V showed a best average of 1150 fps out of the short tube and almost 1250 fps out of the 1 and 5/8 inch barrel.

   

   The .25 ACP cannot match this type performance nor come near equalling it and as I think there is no point in reinventing the wheel,the NAA .25 Guardian already closes the gap in short order. Auto pistol are capable of higher velocity due to no cylinder gap. A .380 sized frame Guardian in .22 Mag would interest me plenty.

[redhawk4]

A good 50 gr 25 acp produces more or less the same velocity as a 50gr 22mag in a mini.

   

   To say it can't match that type of performance is wrong, you aren't comparing like with like on a 30gr. That's like me saying the 22gr Magsafe 25acp at 1750 fps trumps your 30gr at 1150-1250 fps hands down. So the statement "The .25 ACP cannot match this type performance nor come near equalling it" is incorrect.

   

   I agree there is no point reinventing the wheel, so as I said originally there's no point in building a Guardian in 22 mag when a 25 acp can get the same thing done in a more compact package. I did also say "if" twice about the idea of an upgraded or magnum 25acp so I was not implying it was necesscarily a good idea, however if I were starting out on the 25NAA project today, I would have looked at the idea of a Magnum 25acp type cartridge before going down the necked down 32 route. It's done now and as I said originally, I doubt there is sufficent interest in a 25 caliber SD round for it to be a truly viable option in any format, so I would not be investing any money there. As WildTim says the small 380 and 9mm guns have made these smaller caliber autos less attractive for SD.

   

   You failed to explain how a 22 mag Guardian would be a good idea given the cartridges overall length, if my research is correct 45acp is 1.26" in overall length and 22mag 1.35" it therefore doesn't make a good round for a pocket semi auto application IMO, particulalry as you have other issues like rim lock from the rimmed cases to contend with.

[kwb]

I'm comparing what I think are 2 of the more effective comparable loads,a 35gr Gold Dot.25 ACP loading with the 30 gr CCI + V .22 Mag loading. IMO there is no "good" 50 gr .25 ACP loading,it's track record of failures to stop are legion. I surely wouldn't be choosing a 50gr .22 Mag load in one of these mini guns,either

[redhawk4]

Heavy versus light bullets is a whole discussion in itself and will start and endless argument like most caliber discussions. Many here prefer the heavier bullets in their Mini. A 50 grain FMJ 25acp will easily out penetrate the 35 grain bullets from Hornady, but then others would argue the 22gr Magsafe at 1750 fps is better than any. My point was based on 50gr because they were the only simialr bullet weights I could compare. The bottom line is the energy produced by the two calibers is about the same. It doesn't matter much to me, I have both, although 380 is the minimum caliber I usually carry. On the rare occasion I carry just my BT or Beretta 950, I would tend to err on the side of 9 rounds of 25acp being, with the speed of deployment from the Beretta, better than 5 of 22 mag, but not enough to worry either way.

   

   Anyway, all of that was getting way off my original point which was that 22 mag would not be a good round for them to use in a Guardian, for the reasons stated and the fact it would need extensive changes to accomodate the cartridge length and that with only 3/4" of usable barrel length, the 22 mag performance would be poorer than it is in the 1 1/8" barrel. Heaven forbid I should start a caliber pissing contest

[kwb]

I'll respect your opinion,Redhawk. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

   

   Definately no pissing contests needed here. Take care.

[redhawk4]

Hopefully you can see the numbers as well as my opinion. I wasn't getting at you Kwb, but I see people regularly saying on the forum they want a 22 mag Guardian. Today was the first time I'd considered it seriously and was looking at the ammo sizes, mainly because I had my BT and Guardian on my desk. I then realised just how long a cartridge 22 mag really is (longer than 45 acp) and realised how it would not fit even the Guardian 380 frame, nor for that matter a 1911. 22 mag is getting close to 38 spl in overall length and while that is one of the "all time greats" we don't see it in many, if any, autoloaders. Based on all that, I don't think we need to hold our breath for that NAA model to appear.  

   

   I'm surprised NAA has never looked at a 22LR version though, given their strong showing in the 22 market place.

   

   For what they are worth:

   

   http://www.brassfetcher.com/var25acp.html">www.brassfetcher.com/var25acp.html

   

   http://www.brassfetcher.com/CCI%20Blazer%20and%20Sellier%20and%20Bellot%20FMJ.html">www.brassfetcher.com/CCI%20Blazer%20and%20Sellier%20and%20Bellot%20FMJ.html

   

   http://www.brassfetcher.com/NAAminiRevolver22Magnum.html">www.brassfetcher.com/NAAminiRevolver22Magnum.html

[westerly1965]

You know I had never sat down and did the math on that cartridge for a guardian but I thank you for doing it for us Redhawk and I think your right.  While a LR might be feasible I just got out some mags and laid them next to my guardian and some 380's as you did in the pic above and I think your right it would be an unrealistic amount of work to make a mag version work but a LR version would be much less work and I would buy that to!

[redhawk4]

Thanks Westerly, not much else to do to day while ill with a bad cold and rather bored.

   

   Given how much the 22mag would impinge on the barrel length with it's long case, I think you'd end up with pretty similar velocity from a 22 LR with the longer barrel length you could have for the same overall dimension, given the amount you'd save on the magazine well and chamber length.

   

   I think a few here would look at a 22LR Guardian, but it might be a little pricey though for a 22 LR when you look at other such offerings like the little Beretta, Taurus,Bersa and others already in the market place. I don't see how it could be made much cheaper than the Guardians already being made, if any, because it would basically be the same gun.

[coinchop]

I would be very interested in a 22LR Guardian!!!

   Scaled down a bit to 22 size would be better yet.

   Would everybody be happy if it stayed the same as

   in DAO, or would it have to be made in SA first shot

    to draw a buying crowd?

   SA would likely cost more. I would like either>.

   SA with a hammer spur would reqiure a safty.

[redhawk4]

If it was being redesigned to the point of altering the firing mechanism, I'd like SA only like the Beretta 950 Jetfire. It would be a lot of fun to shoot fast just playing around. I probably wouldn't be using it for SD, but if you did, cock the hammer like you do on the Minis and then you can keep firing fast and for as long as is necessary.

   

   My guess, if it ever happens is it will be very virtually identical to the current design of Guardian, they would probably base it off the 32 platform for cost reasons.

   

   These are the hottest 25acp rounds I've found so far, what are Glaser Blue like, I'm always dubious of these "gimmicky" type bullets. Anyone have any first hand experience?

   

   Glaser Blue

   Caliber :25 ACP

   Bullet Type :Round Nose

   Bullet Weight :35 GR

   Muzzle Energy :94 ft lbs

   Muzzle Velocity :1100 fps

   

   Fiocchi FMJ 25AP

   Caliber :25 ACP

   Bullet Type :Full Metal Jacket

   Bullet Weight :50 GR

   Muzzle Energy :72 ft lbs

   Muzzle Velocity :800 fps

[wildtim]

The Glaser is a lightweight frangible bullet, they usually fail miserably on penetration tests not even reaching useful depths out of higher power defensive calibers.

   

   The Air marshals used to carry these because they couldn't put a hole in a plane.  They no longer carry them because they don't put holes in bad guys either and that was with a .40 S&W load.

[lohman446]

But you have to remember that the "success" of the 40 was only made possible by the "failure" of the 10MM.

[grayelky]

If NAA (or anyone else) wants my attention, and money, when they build a small self-defense Guardian-like pistol, make it light. I am not carrying a heavy, all SS pistol. Several companies have shown polymer frames can be less than ugly.

   

   Yes, there is something nice about the heft of an all steel pistol. After it sits in my pocket all day, I no longer want to carry it. I will deal with the recoil, but not the weight. How about a .22 LR version of the Seecamp, but with a polymer frame? I suspect it would not weigh much more than a BW, and still get 6 or 7 rounds in the magazine.

[redhawk4]

I think I'd prefer the same velocity with an FMJ in 25acp. As I said I'm always sceptical of these types of bullets, it seems more strange to have them in weak calibers like 25acp, because problems of overpenetration etc. are not really the concern, penetration is the concern for those carrying small calibers.

   

   I think a 50gr at 800 fps would likely be more effective and certainly give a lot more penetration.

[wildtim]

Actually Gray might be onto something.  I wouldn't mind seeing a "pretty" Polymer pistol.  I imagine some gloss, maybe even color swirls, anything nicer, classier, than rough matte black.