Black Widow has notch in trigger travel.

cfsharry · July-16-12 11:07

L446

I disagree. If all that was required in a defensive handgun is that it go bang then I guess I've been wasting money when I've paid to have trigger work done to improve its' function. I can't think of anything more important than a good trigger to insure decent performance.

lohman446 · July-16-12 12:07

Different strokes. With the exception of adding wood inserts to my SP101 (which I was even a touch leary of doing) all of the handguns that I would classify as being likely to be used by me for a defensive situation are 100% stock. The exception was I put in a heavier "trigger" in the Glocks I carried routinely though I quit carrying them some time ago.



   I don't need any modification on a gun that I may be forced to use that a DA could point at and argue I was just "waiting for the chance".



   I understand the need for a good trigger for shooting accurately. However I think most people who carry NAAs are going to use them in such a manner that they would be considered contact range weapons where accuracy is not considered as vital.



   That being said you know your needs better than the rest of us. By all means if the trigger is not up to your satisfaction it should be addressed

millsriver · July-16-12 13:07

After reading all of these posts, I just had to go check out my BW for trigger pull. Luckily smooth and crisp, one click. My one and only experience with NAA's customer service was excellent. I was really impressed with attitude and speed of response. Good Luck!!

ArmedPatriot · July-16-12 21:07

My mini seems to be flawless so far. the trigger pull is smooth and no kinks otherwise that Ive seen. Ive only fired it 5 times when I bought it just to make sure it works.

The gun will never see heavy use for the simple fact that I didnt buy it to use, but to carry strictly as a backup gun.

jestus · July-17-12 00:07

Well the BW is going back tomorrow via FedEx. I cleaned it with a bore snake last night and dry fired (sans cylinder) a few times and found that more than trigger issues plague this sample.

The hammer doesn't fall correctly, it actually has momentarily hung up on the frame and shows a lot of wear on the left side of the hammer and blade! And in cleaning the gun I probed the barrel/chamber alignment using an aluminum cleaning rod and found it hung up on the edge of the chambers on the right side of the barrel but not the left. Timing? I'm sure customer service will take care of everything.

cfsharry · July-18-12 16:07

L446



   You are right about one thing; different strokes for different folks.



   If you insist, for whatever reason, on making wood with a dull axe that is certainly your right. You go astray however when you admonish others who choose to work with a sharpened blade. Doing so makes you look somewhat the dim bulb.



   You may have noticed that quite a number of forum contributers have chosen to modify their minis by replacing their stock grips with Chong Grips. They did this, I believe, to improve the handling and performance of their pistol. They are optimizing their guns to provide a higher degree of performance they feel they need from a personal defense firearm.



   If you choose to run your Ruger, (not known for great triggers), stock that is your business. However, to do so for the reason given is, in my opinion, lame.

heyjoe · July-18-12 18:07

if it gives Lohman peace of mind then it makes perfect sense for him. i happen to agree with him. the firearms i carry for self defense are stock except for grips. having been involved in a number of legal proceedings from grand juries to trials both state and federal, the last thing i want to do is to have to defend something extraneous to the justification of any self defense claim.

Not nice calling Lohman a dim bulb because you dont agree with him. makes your wattage look on the low side.

lohman446 · July-18-12 18:07

Ehh. I think most people on this board are fantastically better shots than I am. Trust me the trigger on my Ruger (or for that matter my mini) are not what are holding my accuracy back. My accuracy was no better with my Kimber.

I am not concerned about what a gun owner thinks of my trigger. I am concerned about what a DA might convince 12 non gun-owners what a "customized" trigger might indicate.

jestus · July-18-12 18:07

When I first started shooting I was always told to keep my Eye on the front Sight.

Now my problem is simply Eye Sight...

I can hit it ...if I can see it.

louiethelump · July-18-12 18:07

It is a personal choice.



   Neither is wrong.



   A duty or defense gun of MINE is left STOCK other than grips. A sporting gun is another matter.



   When the S&W trainers that taught at the S&W academy cautioned about ANY modification to the gun other than grips, and explained that they often testified as to the altered or unaltered condition of S&W handguns used to shoot people made a believer out of me. I suppose this comes from the cop background. The department policy was that anything other than cleaning could only be done by the armorer. I was the armorer. Factory specifications only was the rule. I don't know about in other states but here in FL, violation of Department Policy is prima facie evidence of NEGLIGENCE in a civil case. You shot him with an altered gun, you violated department policy and you just lost in civil court due to negligence.



   I know all you nay sayers don't believe it and laugh at us when we say these things, but then YOU have probably not been sued in State or Federal Court. If you get into a shooting you WILL be sued, and they USUALLY try to make the shooting out to be accidental on YOUR part. (if it was an intentional act, your home owner insurance does not cover you; if it was an accidental injury or death, it does. Insurance companies have more money than most of us) This is where the light trigger pulls and internal alterations come in. Modify them if you want, but be prepared to PAY if you use it.



   When you have been sued, you will understand.



   Some people refuse to learn from the experiences of others and have to go through it all THEMSELVES before they believe it.



   Good luck

jestus · July-18-12 19:07

Louie,



   Excellent point you make regarding altered guns in defense situations. As it relates to my BW's trigger, there may be some misunderstanding. What is the factory standard, inconsistency? We have had several posters here say they have NAA's with notchy triggers and several say they have a nice clean crisp pull. No one has asked for or indicated they have or want a lighter pull. My stock Beretta .380 and Colt .38 Sp. have much cleaner DA trigger pulls than my BW SA (and in SA mode the Beretta and Colt are very light). I would be happy with a factory standard, but I don't seem to know what that is yet.



   Just for speculation, what happens if a target shooter with a bullseye pistol has his home invaded and he reaches for the only gun he has. I can tell you he won't miss, but is he negligent?, or "Just itching' to shoot someone?", or is he simply defending his family and home? Now, if he carried that "bullseye" shooter concealed for "defense" I can see the issue.



   As for an NAA mini, which court is actually going to consider that in defense, a tiny .22 gun was chosen for it's killing, man-stopping ability, especially with SA. Compare that to a midget 1911, or double stacked 9mm, or a .357 means you are packing serious heat and your intention is "obvious." What about these guys that carry cocked and locked SA .45's? Yikes!



   Well, anyway, I do appreciate your experience and that's why I choose to carry my BW with a reliable, hopefully, factory-standard trigger.

lohman446 · July-18-12 20:07

Jestus I would not consider any gun repaired as part of the factory warranty to be altered. Some of the "add-ons" that NAA does (scalloped slides, guttersnipe sights, etc) might be in some grey area in my mind but what you are discussing is simply warranty repair to make the gun operate as it was originally intended.

Let's take a different scenario and talk about a shooting we are all familiar with. Can you imagine if Mr. Zimmerman was carrying a custom .45 complete with an altered trigger and other modifications? He has and will have enough problems defending things that have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the shooting that he does not need any more problems or conjecture thrown out.

jestus · July-18-12 21:07

Lohmann,



   Okay, we are on the same page.



   As for Zimmerman, who knows? It would certainly be worse if he had a tricked out gun. But it is all bad enough as is. I was disgusted when they (who is they? the media? the NAACP? the religious community?, whacko factions?) cluster bucked the incident. How'd this get turned into a racial incident? Argh! Maybe there will be some clear outcome, but it has all become such a circus. The sad thing is that a young man is dead. That never should have happened.



   I hope to think that no one here would be tempted to carry a tricked out gun for self defense. Reliable, accurate and clean? Yes. Hopped up? No. Save those for the gun ranges.

ArmedPatriot · July-19-12 06:07

"As for an NAA mini, which court is actually going to consider that in defense, a tiny .22 gun was chosen for it's killing, man-stopping ability, especially with SA. Compare that to a midget 1911, or double stacked 9mm, or a .357 means you are packing serious heat and your intention is "obvious." What about these guys that carry cocked and locked SA .45's? Yikes! "

   ====================================================



   I think all the rhetoric about prosecutors and juries going nuts because of all this sort of thing was just bull hockey. Ive read thousands of self defense stories and have yet to run across one where the prosecutor was trying to prove that the gun packer used special 'killer' bullets and should be locked up for ever over it.



   A gun kills when it hits vital organs or arteries....thats what guns do. The whole idea with CC to begin with is to have enough power to stop the criminal...if he dies, he dies....that outcome was brought about by his choice to commit the felony to begin with.



   I use reloads in my 357...actually toned down for the wife because full load 357 magnums are wrist breakers in a snubby...and Im not going to lose a moments sleep worrying about some prosecutor tryin got trump up some charge that I made 'killer' bullets.

   If I wanted more power I sure as •••• wouldnt be carrying a lowly 357 magnum when there are MUCH bigger options out there.

ArmedPatriot · July-19-12 06:07

"I am not concerned about what a gun owner thinks of my trigger. I am concerned about what a DA might convince 12 non gun-owners what a "customized" trigger might indicate. "

   =====================================================



   I understand what youre saying...but can you show us ANY real cases where the DA actually used this sort of thing against someone who LAWFULLY used a gun for self defense?



   I have gone thru THOUSANDS of self defense accounts for my websites and I have yet to find a single case like this.

   If you have one Id be very interested in seeing it.

   My guess is that its worrying for nothing.

   Either the shooting was justified and lawful...or it wasnt.

lohman446 · July-19-12 06:07

If I look only for cases that were deemed lawful I would miss the ones that were convicted and as such would find exactly zero. By limiting the search to "lawful" cases of self defense you will find only those that were found... well lawful.



   I have no idea what goes on in a jury room. I am going to accept that the posters above who have sat in on multiple trials are closer to subject matter experts than I am. However I do know this about a jury: out of twelve people at least one is likely to be an extreme liberal and 5-7 voted for Obama in the last election and some will do it again - I am not depending on them to look at things rationally and calmly. I am not depending on a DA to stick to the facts relevant to the incident either. A civil trial lawyer, who has money at stake based on the size of the award, is even less likely to.



   My conclusion to carry a non-customized gun (or ammo) is based on the premise that it might cause me issues with a jury. If you find the premise unrealistic (or that I overweighted it) then you will come to a different conclusion and we simply agree to disagree.



   You stated "either the shooting was justified and lawful... or it wasn't". I am going to guess Mr. Zimmerman and those who originally decided not to prosecute would disagree.

louiethelump · July-19-12 07:07

You will see this very thing in the Zimmerman case and you are seeing it already. He is being accused of cruising the neighborhood looking for a black kid to shoot! It has already been questioned why he was armed. It will be further questioned about why he needed a "powerful, high capacity gun in the same chambering as the army and police use" to patrol this gated community. Why would he need such a powerful, high capacity weapon to drive around in the neighborhood?



   Gunpacker, you can hide you head in the sand and pretend it does not happen if you want.



   Recently there was a case listed here with an older man who was sent to prison for 20 years for shooting near some kids. Do you KNOW what gun he used? Do you KNOW that there was no issue made over what gun and ammunition he used, and that he was not convicted at least partially by the jury being told he was just looking for someone to shoot, and this was evidenced by the terribly powerful weapon he used?

   YOU DON'T KNOW THAT!!! You don't know it because you would have to read the whole transcript of the trial to find it! Where have you searched? In NEWS articles?

??



   In your "thousands of cases for your website" did you read all the transcripts of the trials? I bet you did not. If you have a gun website and you carry reloaded ammo in your personal guns, you have no credibility and are doing harm to your readers.





   OF COURSE you are not finding information of the DA using this information in lawful shootings!!!! (can you be this dense?) IF THE ACCUSATION STICKS , IT IS NOT A LAWFUL SHOOTING!!!! HELLO!!!!





   Aside from this, it is not the DA that either Joe or I were talking about. It is the CIVIL suit afterwards. You do know the difference I hope.





   You are hiding from reality. I hope we don't read about you some day, imprisoned over some silly issue due to your refusal to see the world as it IS.







   This is not personal, and please don't take it that way. I am sorry that you live in a fantasy world, but I BELIEVE you do. (this is my opinion) You are of course welcome to do so. When attorneys who primarily do defense work, but teach at the police academy, tell you in your training, that if you have an altered gun or ammunition in a shooting as a police officer, he will use that against you in the civil trial that will follow, and as a defense of the guy you shot at his trial to make you look bad. Attorneys from the prosecutor's office come and talk to you and tell you that if you use altered guns and ammunition that will be a consideration in their investigation to determine if your shooting was justified or not and if you get charged or not in that shooting.



   Wise people listen to such things.



   But this is just my opinion. I have no personal stake in what YOU do, so knock yourself out, but to give such utterly bad advised on a forum or website is extremely irresponsible. IN MY OPINION

cfsharry · July-19-12 11:07

Hayjoe,

   You might want to work on your comprehension skills. Re-read my post. I never called L446 a dim bulb. I said that his suggesting Justus accept his trigger 'as is' rather than expecting a higher level of performance, as long as the gun goes bang made him 'appear' a dim bulb. My statement had nothing to do with my agreeing or disagreeing with his thoughts on why he ran stock.

   Louie,

   I agree that the issue is a personal choice. In this respect I believe if one is going to use a tool it is best to be fully versed in the use of that tool. I also believe that the tool should be optimized to perform the task for which it is intended. In the case of a firearm used for personal defense, (even more so than one used for hunting), I want a gun I can absolutely count on and one which performs it's task as effortlessly as possible. Regarding police usage, a police department is an institution and as such needs uniformity. Decisions are made by those in command, for any number of reasons, as to type of weapons to be carried and ammunition used. To go outside of the prescribed boundries basically puts an officer 'off the reservation' and could, (probably would), create a liabilty issue

   Gunpacker,

   I am in agreement with your take on the subject of liability. I, for one, do not believe you live in fantasyland but are more in touch with the reality of the situation than those who choose to place limits on their ability to successfully face a threat to their personal safety. It is trite but true: Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

lohman446 · July-19-12 11:07

Not counting one that does not work like it is supposed to and is corrected for warranty repairs (such as Jestus's) to function as originally intended how much does a "perfect" trigger really change in anyone's accuracy in a stressful situation?



   I'm going to bet it is VERY VERY little. Maybe you guys are so good that there is some great advantage but I can tell you my accuracy is not limited by any mechanical deficiency in my properly working Ruger (which I am told in this thread is a bad trigger).



   Thus the benefit to me is virtually none.



   The risk is civil suit and / or a DA who makes an issue out of it - potentially resulting in a prison sentence or loss of everything. Thus the cost is extremely high.



   My cost to benefit analysis of the situation results in extremely high costs with unkown but accepted as virtually non-existant benefit.



   Obviously if you see less cost and more benefit you may make a different decision. I wish you all the luck with that.

jestus · July-24-12 20:07

Last Tuesday I sent out my BW for warranty work to NAA. I included a letter that noted the rough, notchy trigger. I also noted that the hammer was dragging and sometimes catching on the left side of the frame and that the hammer "blade" seems bent to the left. There's a lot of wear on the left side of the hammer and blade for ~150 fired rounds and a few dozen dry fires (sans cylinder). I also asked them to check the cylinder timing for me.



   Today, I got the BW back! The work order notes a new main spring, trigger and trigger spring were installed. No mention of checking hammer or cylinder timing.



   The hammer blade continues to rub on the left side of the frame as the hammer drops.



   The trigger action is very nice and much more what I expected from new.



   I sent an email to Dustin thanking him for the trigger work and asked about the hammer. Is it simply supposed to 'wear in"?



   I dunno. He has only emailed me once (back in May). Perhaps he's not a "communicator".



   The trigger is very nice though. I will shoot it this weekend and enjoy having it back. I actually missed it this past week and felt rather underdressed without it in my pocket.

blitzkrieger · July-24-12 20:07

Dustin is rather busy being a gunsmith more than an email junkie. He will return a msg to you when he has valid time to do so as he did when I drilled him with a flood of questions. My take on your hammer not being replaced may be that it functions just fine. Do your rounds go bang when you pull the trigger? Every "machine", gun or not will show signs of wear when used. Do you expect a gun to look nib after continuous use or do you want it to function and do its intended job? In most cases, one cannot expect both results.

jestus · July-25-12 00:07

Blitz,



   Yeah, I know Dustin and crew are not email junkies. I simply wanted an acknowledgment of my query as to whether all was okay with it. It had, on a couple of occasions, when slowly dropping the hammer manually, momentarily hung up on the frame. Made me wonder if it was going to develop into an issue or not.



   The question is in his email box. I am sure I will get a response eventually. I just don't want the response to be, "Oops we missed that. Send it back... again".



   As you note, this may be just a matter of break-in.



   As I said, I am anxious to get out and shoot it this weekend. My pocket holster might get her this week, too!

jestus · July-25-12 22:07

I received a very nice response from Dustin this evening. He answered all my questions and appeased any apprehensions I had about the BW.



   As usual, great and understanding customer service.



   Now I am awaiting my John Losey holster and a time to go shootin'!

louiethelump · July-26-12 08:07

PLEASE go shoot the gun. That is what it is designed to do. IF it does not shoot, THEN send it back.



   When you manually manipulate the hammer and other parts, they do not do the same as they will do when making the same movement under spring pressure.



   Just go shoot it and don't worry about little scratches on the sides of the hammer. All guns get those other than hand made precision guns costing thousands of dollars.

jestus · July-26-12 15:07

I'm okay Louie. Thanks. You are right about spring drop vs hand drop. They are little parts, after all. Sometimes I get caught up in the details.



   It's Shootin' Time!

jestus · July-29-12 23:07

Went shooting today. Had a blast! Couple of other blokes at the site doing defense shooting training. Good camaraderie abounded.



   The new trigger needs breaking in. Breaks clean, but about a 10 lb+ pull. I put 65 rounds through her today, still not enough. The new Chong grips are a liability right now as they are so small and the trigger is, for the meantime, so stiff, that I have to grip tighter to resist the trigger pull. My trigger finger began to hurt.

   I am going to change my pull from a SA "fingertip" pull to a DA, "first joint" pull. It was affecting my aim.



   Because of my cross dominant eyesight I also decided to switch hands. I find that I can now shoot better with my left hand but the trigger finger, being new at this, started to hurt sooner.

   I also started shooting my .22 pump action rifle left-handed, too.



   When my eyesight in the right eye changed, about 15+ years ago, I quit going to Bullseye matches and sold my target pistol. I figured the only thing I'd shoot again is a close-up defense pistol. Now that I've discovered that I'm a better shot left-handed than right I can't wait to get back out there again. It's like Re- ju-ve-nation, man!



   BTW, FYI, cover of this week's TIME magazine (as yet unread) entitled, "How Guns Won...Why Americans have turned against gun control"

ajarnmichael · July-08-12 17:07

What is the point of having sights on these mini guns? I sure don't see any. I shoot just as accurately with my wife's black widow if I imagine the barrel is my pointer finger and "point and shoot" than if I take my time and try to use the sights. I imagine the sights might just get snagged on a draw as well. It has got to be even worse on a shorter barrel gun like the pug. I'd like to see NAA build a gun without sights.

RogueTS1 · July-08-12 20:07

The sights do work well. Once you familiarize yourself with them they are quite accurate.

keith44 · July-26-12 09:07

the front sight is all you need to worry about when shooting defensively at the ranges these are intended to be used