Dog Shot by CCW holder

[redhawk4]

I have a feeling this isn't going to go well for the off Duty Animal Control officer as the dog was not attacking a human. For those of us who own dogs, this might be another scenario we need to think through as CCW holders and know in advance what our rights are, or not.

   

   http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=19452865&title=man-shoots-dog-after-dog-attacks-puppy&s_cid=featured-4">http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=19452865&title=man-shoots-dog-after-dog-attacks-puppy&s_cid=featured-4

[gunr]

I used to walk in our neighborhood for excersise. There was this one little dog that was very aggressive, and always came out and looked like he was about to get a piece of me. I kept an eye on him and a hand on my mini in my pocket.  

   

   I went to our local police station and talked to an officer about this. He said I might in deep shit if I shot the aggressive dog.  

   

   He gave me a can of pepper spray, and said this was the way to go. I think that is a good solution. The animal control officer went to their house and told them to tie the dog up or else!

   

   A couple of days latter I went walking by there again and the dog was sitting there with a long piece of rope coiled up besides him. As soon as he spotted me, he made a mad dash towards me. He wasn't used to being tied up and when the little son of a *** came to end of the rope, he almost jerked his head off, he went up in the air about 6 ft. I was laughing so hard, I almost fell down. Serves him right!

[cedarview kid]

Yah, Redhawk. Saw that on the news. We have a right to defend our loved ones, right? Better the aggressor than the victim, eh?

[lohman446]

Guess its a little different then where I live.  My ex-wife once called me because one of the neighbors pits was on the front porch growling at the door.  I called animal control and they asked me if I owned a gun.  I was not at home at the time.

[redhawk4]

I'll be interested to see the outcome, it seems to me drawing and firing a gun in a public area to shoot a dog that's attacking/fighting with another, with no risk to human life, falls outside what the law would see as an acceptable action. We've already had cases where a person was attacked and dogs have been shot and obviously there was no issue there. I guess we'll have to wait and see, a real vicious dog fight is a pretty horrible thing to witness and so I can quite understand the actions of the owner of the puppy, for many their dogs are every bit as much of a part of the family as anyone else.

[top dog]

Redhawk4,

   I agree with you that a dog fight is indeed a horrible thing to witness.

   In this incident,I am glad to see that both dogs will recover and hopefully some lessons learned.

   

   I was not there and did not see the incident but it looks like the Animal Control Officer did take what I would consider proper action.

   

   I hope it works out well for all involved.

   

                                Top Dog

[westerly1965]

Hmmm I will be interested to see the outcome hopefully one of our Utah guys will post it. I gotta say though if your dog jumps mine and you can't get your dog under control and off my dog you might wanna stand back cause I'm probably only gonna kick him once or twice before I pop him in the ass with a .22.

[redhawk4]

Top dog, it may be different given he was an off duty Animal Control Officer, than if you or I did the same - it could be in his favor, or work against him, depending on how his actions fit with the law and if they didn't he might be held to a higher standard.

   

   Westerly, I would certainly have put the boot in if it was my dog, but I think I would have been too unsure on the legalities of shooting the other dog, to have done so. That's why I'm interested to see what happens, because this is certainly a situation I could see finding myself in one day and it would be nice to know what my options are in advance.

[lohman446]

I would have put the boot to the dog with my hand on the gun.  The moment the dog turned on me I would probably be justified in shooting it.

[westerly1965]

Lohmann is right put the boot to the dog it will either back off or not. Most dogs (even aggressive ones) can be cowed by a show of authority they will either back off and run or go after your leg and as soon as it has shown that attack and you have a bite mark you would be justified.  I don't know where you would stand legally if he hadn't bitten a person but if he continued after my dog and I really thought he was going to kill him I would still shoot him and let the court work it out after. I don't know it's a good question.

[ronald arand]

A person moved in 2 houses from us a few years ago and had a dog that looked part pitbull. 1 day wife hollered for me, she was hanging clothes on the line and the dog was in our yard growling at her. I grabbed a ball bat and hollered  and took a step towards the dog. He crouched down and growled while slowly coming at me. Wife went in house and called police and dog catcher, small town, I went in and got a shotgun. The dog went home, I sent police there, and to this day I am armed in or out of the house. He still has the dog, fenced in, and has never spoken to me.

[redhawk4]

My neighbors have to very unruly dogs who have attacked some passers by and so now are kept inside or supervised in the yard because it's not fenced. There is a drop down into my yard and they get on the top of it and antagonize my dog with their aggressive yapping and barking until their owner gets them to pipe down and takes them in. One day one of them will jostle the other off the retaining wall and my dog will tear whichever one it is in half. Because sometimes they still get out at the front and chase after folks walking along the road, I keep a sledge hammer handle I acquired from somewhere inside the front door and obviously I'm carrying, because sooner or later I'm going to have to go out there and save some passer by or family memeber, as I can see it all from my office window . . . . best to be prepared - and of course "you can't beat a nice piece of Hickory"

[lohman446]

When you approach a dog aggressively it sees the aggressive posture and will more often back down.  When you back down from the same dog it just makes it feel an advantage and push the attack as it where.  Surprisingly the same thing works with most thugs.  When you are confronted with a situation rather than running turn and face it, keep your head up, confidence about, and do not back down.  It normally works with dogs and thugs.

[redhawk4]

I agree Lohman, that's something I've learned with dogs and thugs, stand your ground even if you are terrified, if you are going to get chewed up or beaten up anyway there is nothing to lose, but most times it doesn't come to that and if you can stay calm it can be concluded fairly amicably - I don't recommend trying to rub the thugs behind the ears, but the dogs like it once the initial confrontation has subsided.

[top dog]

It seems that everyone here has some very sound advice and experience on this matter.

   

   Hopefully soon my story will be printed in Combat Handguns about me using an NAA 22lr mini to save me from a potential dog attack from a Pit Bull while jogging.

   

   Fortunately the incident ended without me or the dog being injured but always makes me glad that I ALWAYS have an NAA gun of one type or another on me at all times.

   

                                  Top Dog

[redhawk4]

A follow up story has been written. It seems to clarify that here in UT you do have the right to shoot an aggressive dog attacking your own dog, the owner is just complaining that it was unnecessary, even he is saying the law is not on his side.

   

   http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=19486544&title=shooting-dogs-not-necessary-say-owners-advocates">http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=19486544&title=shooting-dogs-not-necessary-say-owners-advocates

[top dog]

I just received information from New Hampshire,although not about a dog incident but something that might give cause to serious thought.

   

   Apparently a 61 yr old grandfather held a 27 yr old burglar at gun point waiting for the arrival of the police.

   I guess the 27 yr old thought that the 61 yr old was not serious and started to leave and the 61 yr old fired a shot into the ground.

   

   Cops arrived,arrested the burglar and grandfather and took all of the grandfathers guns!!!

   

   Am I missing something here?

   

   Or did the cops arrest the grandfather with plans on having the charges dismissed so he couldn't be sued??

   

   I know that this is slightly off thread but is food for thought.

   

                           Top Dog

[lohman446]

In MI there is no such thing as a warning shot.  Discharging a firearm is considered proof that you intended to hit the victim regardless if that was your intent or not.  As such it carries the same need for justification as any other use of a deadly weapon.  Firing at a retreating thug is not allowed.  As such firing a warning shot is not allowed.

[chopprs]

.....I have to admit that most of my friends are cops but some of them are REALLY stupid.....not my friends but cops in general. they are people and some of them are kewl but a few are...well, GEESH!!!

   

   I was just watching a news clip where a Jap biker with a helmet cam was doing stupid stuff on his bike. He came to a stop and some Goober pulls up in front of him in an unmarked car and gets out with a Sig in his hand and says, "State Police, put up your hands". NO BADGE, just a gun!!!!!!!

   If you pull up in front of me in an unmarked car and get out wearing plain clothes pointing a gun at me I AM GOING TO SHOOT YOU......***!!!

   ....anyway, they are pressing charges against the biker for filming the incident....uhm....HUH?!?!?!

   So we now can do NOTHING to defend ourselves from unabashed ridiculous idiots running around and pointing there junk at peeps?

   I am gonna stab someone again today!!!!!

[lohman446]

Someone points a gun at me there is a good chance that only one of us is going to be testifying to what happened after that.

[top dog]

Maybe the grandfather should have said I took a shot and missed?

   

   Chopprs,

   I was an LEO for forty years and I agree,some cops are right on good then there are some others not too cool. We hear and see stories about them in the news all the time.

   

   Pointing a gun at a motorcyclist for a MV stop? I was not there and did not see the incident,but it does give cause for some concern!!!!

   

   Take it nice and easy,go fishing,don't stab no one...again.

   

                            Top Dog

[bud]

The Indiana Supreme Court Did What???

   

   Fourth Amendment of the Constitution:

   

   "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

   

   This no longer applies in the state of Indiana. On Thursday, the Indiana Supreme Court ruled that Hoosiers have no right to resist unlawful police entry into their homes. Any Hoosiers out there, I hope you're reading this because you just lost the right to safety and security in your own homes.

   

       In a 3-2 decision, Justice Steven David writing for the court said if a police officer wants to enter a home for any reason or no reason at all, a homeowner cannot do anything to block the officer's entry.

   

       "We believe ... a right to resist an unlawful police entry into a home is against public policy and is incompatible with modern Fourth Amendment jurisprudence," David said. "We also find that allowing resistance unnecessarily escalates the level of violence and therefore the risk of injuries to all parties involved without preventing the arrest." (emphasis mine)

   

   So if a police officer wants to, they can walk through your front door any time they feel like it. They don't have to have a reason. If you resist against this, YOU get arrested.

   

   And no, they don't even have to knock. The same Indiana Supreme Court had thrown out that little piece of common courtesy earlier in the week.

   

   I guess the "public policy" thing is supposedly "what's best for society as a whole", right? Where have we heard that one before? And the "modern" jurisprudence translates into the "living Constitution" interpretation...you know, that totally insignificant document on which the laws of our entire nation were originally structured that some modern-day intellectuals seem to believe is so archaic that they have to put their own new interpretations on it every time they get a chance.

   

   This is unlawful entry that is being sugar-coated to make it seem lawful by the judicial branch negating what was written in the Constitution.

   

   I hope Hoosiers will push through appeals and beyond as hard as they can.

   Sponsored Content

[lohman446]

And once you are in ongoing violation of the law they then have cause to search.  How convenient huh?

[chopprs]

....I have talked about this with my budz a hundred times and they all agree. Unless they are SURE that a violent crime is being committed as they are standing at the door, they are not going in without a warrant. They all also agree that it would be stupid to just barge in forcibly with only suspition. I think if some idiot did that I would have more joy out of flushing his badge and career than shooting him anyway. Like I said, some of them are good guys and some of them are real idiots......Local "XXXXX" Police has one idiot. He is a couple years from retirement and gives EVERYONE tickets for everything. He has even ticketed wives a kids of cops that he works with. His desk is over in the corner facing the wall per the Lieutenant, no one talks to him or even looks at him. He has to drive the crappiest car on the lot. ....He is a DIK!!!

[masterdebater]

what if u did get attacked by a dog and shot it in front of people, more than likely it wont kill it in one shot (im talking about carrying a mini) so do u let the dog scream and holler in pain or unload into it until its dead?

[redhawk4]

Empty the cylinder, club it to death with the gun and then when bystanders ask "what did you do that for" answer "nothing, but just think what you'll get if you tangle with me" then leave without turning your back and before PETA arrive

   

   Seriously that is a good point, when do you stop shooting if the threat has been neutralized?

[chopprs]

"PETA".....GEESH! They are mad at Donald Trumps kid now because he LEGALLY went hunting in Africa. Don't they have anything to do?!?!?!

[redhawk4]

I think PETA should take the Trumpster's hair into protective custody.

[lohman446]

Redhawk:  In MI at least when shooting in self defense you must only shoot until the attacker ceases to be a threat to you.  In fact if, as the gun clears leather, the attacker ceases to be a threat you are not legally allowed the shot.

[Uncle_Lee]

Oh yes, in Indiana, the cops are all powerful.

   If they want to come in your home, all they need to do is come in.

   Rights are dead now.

   

   Look all across America.

   Rights are dieing all over.

   Especially Christian rights.

[chopprs]

Exactly, this is why if you shoot you MUST shoot to kill. Most of my cop buddies even tell me to make sure he has a knife or a gun or even cut yourself afterward or fire a (benign)round from HIS gun if at all you can. Seems a little Hollywood-ish but keeps YOU from jail!

[redhawk4]

Lohman - I can see sense to such a law in theory, the problem in practice is not so straightforward, it makes it hard for the law abiding citizen to make the correct decision and of course if the perpetrator survives the confrontation, he will have a totally different story that is almost certain to point the finger at gun owner.

   

   I guess it comes back to the old chestnut of you deciding if your life is in danger acting accordingly and LIVING with the consequences.

[lohman446]

Ehh.  I think it becomes overly complicated when you look at it too far.  Essentially if you walk up and "execute" someone who is on the floor and not physically presenting a threat any longer, or who is retreating, you are in trouble.

[redhawk4]

I would be OK with the circumstances you outline, because I would not want to shoot someone in those situations. While I know I would have no problems shooting when necessary, for peace of mind after the event, I would want to know that I had done it because the BG had left me no other option, not because I was angry that he'd broken into my house or whatever and so I fired out of some kind of revenge in the heat of the moment.

[top dog]

In the latest (June) issue of Combat Handguns Magazine,there are two cases of men shooting dogs brought up in the Self Defense and the Law section.

   Brings up some interesting points.

   

                              Top Dog