Caliber Wars and NAA

[bill_deshivs]

I NEVER SAID THE .22S WERE NOT DANGEROUS!
I said, too many people confuse rifle ballistics with pistol ballistics.

[lign]

ooooooh not nice lign, never wish even jest someone to have to use their weapon

Yes, you're absolutely right. I was just playing off his comment about his joke of hesitating to fire it even to save his life due to it being a Ranger.

You're right though. Nothing to joke about. I'll be more circumspect.

[Bigbird48]

there ya go

[OV-1D]

   No problem I'll just run back to the house and get something else , ha .

[Canoeal]

Ballistic gel tests posted here in the past show the .22 Magnum FMJ penetrates something like 16" in ballistics gel (and that's out of the NAA Pug's short barrel), well beyond the 12" FBI recommended minimum.

Plenty of penetration to perforate something vital, as long as you do you part.

Yes but the FMJ does not meet the expansion tests. Gold Dots do, and meet the penetration test. So do Hornady's  but not from a 1" Pug. BTW the Rifleman article the 1" barrel test gun was a Pug, the 1 7/8 was a Ruger lcr...It was part of the reason I decided to get a BW, the others were real sights and the grips...I have changed the last two...

[ikoiko]

FWIW, Gunblast. Original ranger. From 10 feet. (Magnum rounds, no lr cylinder for original )
http://www.gunblast.com/NAA-BreakTop.htm

Ammunition   Bullet Weight   Velocity
PMC JHP                           40      938
Winchester Dynapoint   45    848
CCI TNT JHP                   30   1129
Winchester Supreme JHP   30   1118
Winchester Supreme JHP   34   1096
CCI +V JHP                   30   1100
Federal JHP                   50     722
Armscor JHP                   40    1088


Sorry for the skewed table, wouldn’t stay aligned after posting

[Canoeal]

FWIW, Gunblast. Original ranger. From 10 feet. (Magnum rounds, no lr cylinder for original )
http://www.gunblast.com/NAA-BreakTop.htm

Ammunition   Bullet Weight   Velocity
PMC JHP                           40      938
Winchester Dynapoint   45    848
CCI TNT JHP                   30   1129
Winchester Supreme JHP   30   1118
Winchester Supreme JHP   34   1096
CCI +V JHP                   30   1100
Federal JHP                   50     722
Armscor JHP                   40    1088


Sorry for the skewed table, wouldn’t stay aligned after posting

Here is my compilation of tests for 2" 4" barrels

[rogertc1]

I admit that I read a lot of gun articles, like Uncle Lee said, but there is some value in some of them.

I remember reading an article in the early 60s by Col. Charles Askins in which he reported on an interview he had with John Thompson about the adoption of the 45 ACP.  The army found that the only sure way to stop a hopped up Moro with a bolo was cold steel.  The troops learned that when ever you went into the jungle, you fixed bayonets, because when a Moro popped up from behind a bush and charged, a 220 grain Krag bullet would not stop him before he hacked you.  The key was to let him run onto your 10 inch blade on the end of that long barrel, hold him off, and then shoot him.  A 45-70 Springfield was better due to the longer blade and barrel.

The premise behind the 45 was that if you hit that charging Moro in the leg, it gave out and he fell, in the belly he would double over, and hopefully go down before he got to you, in the shoulder you would turn him and he would miss you with the bolo.  The only sure stopper was a head shot, but that was too easy to miss.

Reading your post led me tot Moro wars.  Good Movie THE REAL GLORY good historic 1939 movie even in these current times. A small American contingent tries to train rural tribesmen to defend themselves against fanatical Muslim radicals in 1906 Philippines. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZUIJSe7p_k&list=PLa4ubAQnoLYgP9cbiGOn7j9yNWBSJG8OO

[Don73]

+1 CovRev  "I love most about my NAAs is the ability to have a gun on me no matter what".

[cbl51]

I admit that I read a lot of gun articles, like Uncle Lee said, but there is some value in some of them.

I remember reading an article in the early 60s by Col. Charles Askins in which he reported on an interview he had with John Thompson about the adoption of the 45 ACP.  The army found that the only sure way to stop a hopped up Moro with a bolo was cold steel.  The troops learned that when ever you went into the jungle, you fixed bayonets, because when a Moro popped up from behind a bush and charged, a 220 grain Krag bullet would not stop him before he hacked you.  The key was to let him run onto your 10 inch blade on the end of that long barrel, hold him off, and then shoot him.  A 45-70 Springfield was better due to the longer blade and barrel.

The premise behind the 45 was that if you hit that charging Moro in the leg, it gave out and he fell, in the belly he would double over, and hopefully go down before he got to you, in the shoulder you would turn him and he would miss you with the bolo.  The only sure stopper was a head shot, but that was too easy to miss.

Reading your post led me tot Moro wars.  Good Movie THE REAL GLORY good historic 1939 movie even in these current times. A small American contingent tries to train rural tribesmen to defend themselves against fanatical Muslim radicals in 1906 Philippines. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZUIJSe7p_k&list=PLa4ubAQnoLYgP9cbiGOn7j9yNWBSJG8OO

Thanks for posting that!!! found it very entertaining and interesting. Of course halfway through I had the weird thought, if the muslim moro's were that afraid of a pig skin, why not just let them all know that all the bullets have been lubed in pig fat?? Or hang pig skins all over the compounds outer wall? Lets the moro invaders scale that!!

[wolfsvein]

I always carry my naa pug 22 mags every where I go and I will say it's not a slouch in terms of ballistics.

[Scout24]

I was at one of my local shops today picking up a new sight for my compound bow. Went to see if they had any Speer Gold Dots at the gun counter. (They did not...) The counter guy was mid-story with a local plainclothes cop about how he came upon a car pulled over one night with a deer in the road. Guy didn't hit the deer, but stopped to move it off the road. It was still alive, and would start thrashing around when he got close. Car guy and counter guy decided it prudent to maybe end the deer's suffering before trying to move it again. Car guy draws "a little revolver like one of these" (points to a very nice assortment of Minis in the case, pugs, sidewinders, the twin to my 1 1/8" magnum, and a long barreled model I didn't recognize.) and proceeds to shoot the deer in the head from a foot or two away. Three times, and the deer is still alive. Counter guy, smiling with the cop, tells of drawing his .45 and putting a round behind the shoulder and ending the deer's life. Says they looked, the rounds didn't even penetrate the skull. I didn't argue,  just rolled my eyes and was glad for the magnum Mini in my pocket. I've no doubt a .45 has it's place, I own one, but doubt highly the deer wasn't dispatched with a Mini.  As nice as their selection was, I'll shop elsewhere from now on.

[Warthog]

Would have to agree Scout.  Way back in my youth, I went to a buddy who kept pigs.  I was going to have me a big roasted pig and a bunch of beer and fireworks and a band and have all my friends over and have a huge bash.  We lived way out in the middle of nowhere so no one would complain.  Pig guy too me out back and had me pick out a pig to butcher up.  I did and he put it into a small cage so it couldn't move around.  He handed me a 22LR Rifle and told me to shoot it, put his finger right where to do this, and then I shot it.  Pig was dead and they have MUCH thicker skulls than a deer.  We bled the pig out, skinned it and butchered it all up, Hams, ribs and bacons.  Gave the skin to his doggie, who spent the next month chewing on it.  Fixed the hams and ribs for the party and we had a great time.  Ate the bacons for breakfast the next day for the clean up grew and the band who had stayed overnight with me.  My buddy brought a bunch of fresh eggs from his chickens and after we ate, we raked the yard to get all the firework stuff and cigarette butts and picked up the plates and cups that didn't make it to the can and burned everything to ash.

Moral, if a 22Lr will kill a pig, it is sure to kill a deer.

[Uncle_Lee]

I killed many deer with a 22 and never lost a one.
Shot placement.
When I needed meat, I went out back of the house and killed and butchered one.

[Scout24]

I paraphrase a Pennsylvania game warden- or at least the story as I heard it... "There's probably been more deer killed in this state with the .22 than all other calibers combined" Shot placement, indeed...   

[Uncle_Lee]

For years my dad and I killed & skinned hogs and steers for people.
We used a 22 on all of them.
Naturally I would use a 22 on deer.

Why gut shoot a deer with a 12 gauge slug when you can make a very clean kill with a 22.

These shots were within 40 feet, nothing further. I could hit the pupil in the eye at 40 feet.

[Scout24]

It works if you're competent and confident, and keep your shots close. Economical and fairly quiet as well. Back to the NAA end of things, my "regular" local shop really has no archery gear. But he will have my Black Widow order here in a week or two. May even trade my Bearcat in on it.

[cbl51]

I was at one of my local shops today picking up a new sight for my compound bow. Went to see if they had any Speer Gold Dots at the gun counter. (They did not...) The counter guy was mid-story with a local plainclothes cop about how he came upon a car pulled over one night with a deer in the road. Guy didn't hit the deer, but stopped to move it off the road. It was still alive, and would start thrashing around when he got close. Car guy and counter guy decided it prudent to maybe end the deer's suffering before trying to move it again. Car guy draws "a little revolver like one of these" (points to a very nice assortment of Minis in the case, pugs, sidewinders, the twin to my 1 1/8" magnum, and a long barreled model I didn't recognize.) and proceeds to shoot the deer in the head from a foot or two away. Three times, and the deer is still alive. Counter guy, smiling with the cop, tells of drawing his .45 and putting a round behind the shoulder and ending the deer's life. Says they looked, the rounds didn't even penetrate the skull. I didn't argue,  just rolled my eyes and was glad for the magnum Mini in my pocket. I've no doubt a .45 has it's place, I own one, but doubt highly the deer wasn't dispatched with a Mini.  As nice as their selection was, I'll shop elsewhere from now on.

Unfortunately stories like this abound in the gun world, and it may  or may not be true. I tend to lump it in with the bull hockey. Lots of people love to talk, and gun shop people are no exception. I've heard lots of these kind of stories, but never having shot a deer or seen a deer shot, maybe it can be true.

But...fortunately I don't plan on shooting through a deer skull with maybe antlers in the way. My only use for the mini is some low life criminal that thinks he's entitled to my wallet. The human sternum and stomach are not as tough as a deer skull. A skinny screw driver can be shoved through there with little trouble, so the deer story doesn't matter. Not shooting a deer,  just a person.

The tactical tommies will slant everything towards their .45, the Glock fan boys will do the same, while the cowboy action shooter can use a single action Vaquero better than most cops there service weapon. Meanwhile viewing a video of the President Reagan attempted assassination, keep in mind all that mayhem with people down and critically injured, was done with a 29.95 .22 revolver. One shot each. I guess they were not tough as a deer skull.

[RogueTS1]

You can't kill anything with a .22; they are made strictly for target practice. 

[Canoeal]

I carry a .32 auto. I have carried a mini revolver in .22 short, many .25 automatics, and darned near every other pistol caliber.
I'm quite confident in my shooting ability, and the abilities of small calibers. I know what they can do.

"I know a woman who killed a deer with a .22 magnum," "I've killed cattle, hogs, and deer with a .22lr."
My bet is that NONE of these shots were with a 1" barreled gun, but rather a rifle. Therein lies my point. What these calibers are capable of from a RIFLE, has little to do with what they will do from a mini revolver. .22 WMR from a rifle is a formidable cartridge-as is the .22lr.
Both cartridges perform rather feebly from sub-2" barrels. This is reality."

OK I carry a 22 mag BW Gold Dots- 1150 Fps 12.5" of penetration , expands to 1.5 x it original size it in gel tests. Hornady ftx- 1100 fps, 15" penetration same type of expansion in gel test. You carry a .32. What in 32 cal matches (in all 3 areas) the performance of my carry rounds? I have not seen any that do... Yeah, you can find ball ammo that gets you 12 inches with 0 expansion or you can find some HPs that will expand but only give you 7" of penetration. I looked hard before I chose to carry the BW. You can look back at post when I asked a lot of questions here, and I did the same a lot of other places. I checked out the gun tests and the ammo tests. I think I chose well enough. My other gun is a Charter Arms Target Pathfinder 4" barrel; out of that the specs are more like 1350 fps for the GDs and 1250 for the Hornady's...
I never confused handgun and rifle ballistics; I was checking it in particular barrel lengths. I owned rifles for hunting and here in Pa I chose a 30-30. I knew I would not be shooting more than about 75 yds. Oh and back 40 years ago, with that 30-30, I reloaded...

[bill_deshivs]

So many of you are still equating .22s from a rifle, to .22s from a pistol.
There is a MASSIVE difference in power-especially from a 2" or less barrel.

[Uncle_Lee]

So many of you are still equating .22s from a rifle, to .22s from a pistol.
There is a MASSIVE difference in power-especially from a 2" or less barrel.

I know the power loss in a pistol.
The statement was made about .22 LR.
Yes, I used a rifle to kill deer.

What is the power difference between a Remington Golden Bullet .22 LR out of an 18 inch barrel at 40 feet and a Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Ammunition, .22 WMR out of a 2 inch barrel at 5 feet?

[cbl51]

So many of you are still equating .22s from a rifle, to .22s from a pistol.
There is a MASSIVE difference in power-especially from a 2" or less barrel.

Some people may be making that mistake, but in reality it doesn't matter. The F.B.I. may have some reason they need a minimum of 12 inches penetration, but the average Joe doesn't. All you need is deep enough, which on the average human is about 7 to 8 inches. Ask any doctor or radiologist how deep the heart is, or the liver or lungs. And keep in mind the loss of velocity won't matter because we're not shooting at 100 or even 50 yards. About 5 or 6 feet will be about right.

Again, too many people get too caught up in the power game. I guess goes hand in hand with needing that wheel  barrow to cart their cajones in. Truth is, the human body is a very frail thing, thin skinned and delicate nervous system with few redundant mechanisms. Is there any doubt that a nice pointy 6 inch bladed stiletto shoved into the body is a very bad thing? Then a bullet making a hole 8 inches in must be bad for organs like heart, lungs, liver, and brain. It really doesn't take that much to kill or  very seriously injure someone. They do it all the time in prison with crude license plate metal shiv's. A decent quality paring knife is a big step up. So where does that put a mini size .22 revolver?

The Iver Johnson cadet had a little 2 inch barrel, yet the .22 bullet that Sirhan Sirhan put into Bobby Kennedy's head killed him pretty good. And the little snub nosed RG that Hinckley used in his attempted assignation of President Reagan put rounds right through James Brady's head, a D.C. police Captains throat, and a secret service agents stomach. All were down for the count.

Yeah, theres a big difference between a .22 round out of a Ruger 10/22 and a snubbie little revolver. But the ugly truth is at very up close and personal range, it won't matter at all. I'm not a hunter and never have been, so I've never shot a deer. I've never even shot a rabbit. I don't know much about rifles, and I've never been much of a long range guy. Maybe where I grew up and was raised, with a back alley as a play ground. If you handed me a scope sighted rifle I'd have to ask you which end do I look through.  In the army basic training I managed to qualify with the M16 but that was it. Barely. But I know close range violence because that is what I had to deal with growing up. I know what Have seen with my own eyes. I know what I have experienced myself. So that's why I don't pay much attention to numbers. Like the bumble bee supposedly should not be able to fly, small low velocity rounds shouldn't be that effective.

But like the bumble bee, they get it done. One way or the other.

[kc]

Regarding the use of a handgun to defend oneself or another, I think most here will generally agree that:

1. The goal is to stop the aggression, not cause death. Death may result, but that wasn't the goal.

2. Unexpecting humans (in "condition white" - oblivious to any threat) are generally very easy to overcome, at least temporarily. Hence the examples given (Hinkley, etc).

3. Mindset, preparation and motivation really matter. Extreme emotion (rage, fear, etc.) or the influence of some drugs will likely make an aggressor much harder to stop.

The Moros were extremely motivated, prepared and ready to die to achieve their goal, and very hard to stop. While a central nervous system hit with the .38 (or a .22) would have been just as effective as the .45, that kind of accuracy in the heat and chaos of battle is pretty rare. Similarly, cops and soldiers are generally harder to stop, primarily due to their mindset, preparation and motivation, not the caliber of handgun they are carrying.

The mindset and preparation of the defender matters greatly. A person that has trained well, thoughtfully considered the most likely scenarios and prepared for those as best he/she can, will likely be a formidable adversary and a relatively "hard target", certainly compared to the average person on the street.

4. All else being equal (including point of impact of the round fired), a bigger & heaver bullet is more likely to be immediately effective. So a .45 acp will probably be more effective than a .22lr, everything else being equal.. I would prefer a small, light, easily concealed handgun that fires a 2-pound coffee can full of concrete.... that oughta stop 'em! Unfortunately, the laws of physics "...for every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction.." would make it difficult to handle that puppy.

My edc will probably remain a .22M Black Widow, because the aggressors that I'm most likely to encounter will probably be motivated more by the desire for material gain, and it will likely be easier to get them to immediately change their behavior.

As has been so eloquently stated by others, "...if I knew I had to go into that kind of fight, I'd take a Marine detachment and a long-gun of the appropriate type, not any handgun...". But we cannot always avoid or anticipate the encounter.... so if I prepare as well as I can, generally incorporate common-sense "avoidance behaviors" into my lifestyle, remain vigilant (but not paranoid, i.e."condition yellow") so that I'm aware of what's happening around me, I reduce the likelihood of being a victim to the level that I'm ok with.

And I think the issue in this discussion may actually be that (the level I'm ok with), which will likely be different for each of us, given the differences in where we live and go, as well as our background, experience, training, etc.). And that sure seems appropriate to me.

Note my extensive use of words like "generally", "likely" and "probably". There are always exceptions to the rule!

As we all know, proficiency with whatever weapon we carry should never constitute our first or only plan; in fact, it should be a little ways down the list.

[Ruger]

Said it before; a hole where it doesn't belong is never a good thing, whether that be in you, the wall, or the other guy.  I like my wall, and have become somewhat partial to myself.  I lean toward having the hole in the other guy.

[redhawk4]

It seems in caliber wars things are always "proven" by the exceptions among those who believe the 45 to be like a death ray and anything else to be utterly ineffectual. While many stories become exaggerated the more they are told, I believe most of them begin with the shot placement. Someone can be shot with just about any caliber and miraculously survive, while others are killed by an air gun pellet in the eye. We see the same occur throughout life, people falling off motorcycles at 100mph and walking away, someone else tripping over a step and dying or suffering serious injury. There's a lot of "luck" involved in the outcome of many things.

The guy who couldn't finish a deer with a 22 was obviously shooting it in the wrong place if it wouldn't penetrate the skull, even given the reduced velocity from a short barrel. Ammunition may also have played a part, I know a lot of people who give no thought to what ammunition they put in their SD handguns, thereby reducing the performance of that particular caliber significantly. Many who own guns are not knowledgeable about such things IME.

Too many have died as a result of a 22 round for it to be dismissed out of hand. Mossad has used the 22 950 style Beretta to assassinate many people, so obviously they penetrate human skulls, in one documentary I saw when they were hunting down those behind the terror attack at the 72 Munich olympics, they talked about how the powder charge was reduced in the 22 rounds so the shots would not be heard.

Despite all the macho bravado we hear in caliber wars, there is not one person who would not in reality rather have a 22, than nothing, when facing their potential demise. That is the reality that most of us who carry small handguns face, when I carry a 22 or 25 handgun it's because that's what I will have on me if something happens and it will work a lot better than whatever I left at home, or in the truck, because I couldn't be bothered to carry it, or on this occasion I needed something really small to conceal because of where I was going and/or what I was wearing.

[bill_deshivs]

I'm not dismissing the .22 at all! I have carried it as a defensive round and probably will again.
'
Yes, a .22 from a small handgun will punch a hole- but it won't punch a hole with a bullet that expands to .40 caliber like a rifle bullet will- nor will it penetrate as deeply. Will that hole be big enough or deep enough- maybe. Same with a .45.

BTW- the Mossad never used the .22 short Beretta 950, they used the much bigger model 70 (longer barrel and .22LR.)

[Ruger]

FBI statistics show more fatal wounds from a 22 than any other caliber.  Not the reason to brag about the mighty 22, just sayin'.

[redhawk4]

I'm not dismissing the .22 at all! I have carried it as a defensive round and probably will again.
'
Yes, a .22 from a small handgun will punch a hole- but it won't punch a hole with a bullet that expands to .40 caliber like a rifle bullet will- nor will it penetrate as deeply. Will that hole be big enough or deep enough- maybe. Same with a .45.

BTW- the Mossad never used the .22 short Beretta 950, they used the much bigger model 70 (longer barrel and .22LR.)

Agreed the 70 was normal issue, but the guns they showed working in an "unofficial capacity" hunting those behind the terror attacks were definitely the smaller 950 style, but it was a TV documentary so who knows if they were correct in terms of being the actual pictures, either way my point was they still used reduced power ammo to successfully kill I'm assuming with the emphasis being on shot placement .

[redhawk4]

FBI statistics show more fatal wounds from a 22 than any other caliber.  Not the reason to brag about the mighty 22, just sayin'.

That's because there are way more 22's out there than other calibers and I'm sure some of the stats come from people using them irresponsibly because of the idea getting spread that they are on par with a BB gun.

[cbl51]

FBI statistics show more fatal wounds from a 22 than any other caliber.  Not the reason to brag about the mighty 22, just sayin'.

That's because there are way more 22's out there than other calibers and I'm sure some of the stats come from people using them irresponsibly because of the idea getting spread that they are on par with a BB gun.

THIS!!^^^

Too much careless gun handling of .22's has resulted in injury and death from it being belittled. "Little better than a sharp stick" and other such idiotic sayings. The best example of this was the moron in, I think Tennessee, who was doing a do-it-yourself cable installation at his home. He needed a hole through a wall and didn't have a drill bit long enough, so he used a .22 too shoot a hole. It was extremely sad that his wife was hanging laundry in the back yard, and the bullet went through the wall and killed her on the spot.

According to the sheriffs report, he kept repeating over and over, "But it was only a .22!"

I can only wonder if he learned from someone growing up that a .22 is little better than a sharp stick. I can agree that a lot of the .22 shootings are accidents from under estimating the little thing. The other thing is, a cheap .22 revolver was very often the choice among certain "street types" because it was low cost, and therefor more apt to be ditched over the side of the 14th street bridge if need be with no regrets. And they always worked, unlike some small cheap semi autos. I can recall from my teenage years in D.C. that the old Iver Johnson cadets and Harrington Richardson .22 revolvers were VERY common on the streets along with some cheap derringer type pistols.

[Bj]

I used to hear about gangs making a zip 22 gun out of car antennas.  That was a very long time ago.  Never saw one.

[Canoeal]

So many of you are still equating .22s from a rifle, to .22s from a pistol.
There is a MASSIVE difference in power-especially from a 2" or less barrel.
[/quoTE

THE NUMBERS I POSTED ARE FOR 2' & 4" BARRELED HANDGUNS. THE SPECS FOR 22 MAGS OUT OF A RIFLE ARE BETWEEN 1875 FPS, AND 2300 FPS. Oh and you never did answer where you find 32 autos with the ballistics that match a defensive round from a 22 mag in either a 2 or 4" handgun...Using data relevant to handguns of course...

[Uncle_Lee]

I used to hear about gangs making a zip 22 gun out of car antennas.  That was a very long time ago.  Never saw one.

Made my share of them back in the 50's.
Antennas were round then, just the right diameter.
You had to find one that was a solid tube, not the split ones.

[zburkett]

The most important thing about a small .22 is the gun with you is always, ALWAYS better than the one you left at home.