Airweight Mini?

[Setarip]

Hello!
So I finally got around to picking up an .22lr 1 1/8 mini. I LOVE it! I've only had a chance to fire some Colibri through it in my garage, but it's actually not too bad to get a decent hold of. Well, I'm a revolver guy, and my other pocket carry is a 642. This got me thinking...

...Why not an airweight mini? By my calculations an alloy frame with steel cylinder and barrel would weigh approximately 2.83 ounces. If NAA went even further with a Ti cylinder and barrel that would drop down to about 2.1 ounces! I know these guns at 4.5 ounces are already plenty light, but a mini that weighs about 2 ounces would be neat. I'd by one or two for sure!

Another random thought: if NAA did make a mini chambered in .32acp, and also made it an airweight with Ti cylinder and barrel, they could arguably get that thing to weigh less than 5 ounces. So many possibilities with these.

[grayelky]

As you may have guessed, this has been kicked around before. Seems the powers that be feel the effort would not be worth the return on investment. For instance, my current magnum has been living in my pocket since 2010, and it is not much different, cosmetically than it was when new. I don't even notice it is there. If it weight 2 1/2 ounces instead of 6, how much more would I want to spend? Would it be unchanged mechanically if it were an alloy? My LR was carried from 1977 until 2010. The only difference is the engraving I had done about 10 years ago. Would an alloy gun be able to make those claims? How many times would it have needed to go back for mechanical repairs? That is, vs the none (not counting the safety notch update)?

Now, if we were to discuss the Guardian, I may we'll be on your side of this discussion. I feel it is too heavy for its power level/size.

[kc]

As you may have guessed, this has been kicked around before. Seems the powers that be feel the effort would not be worth the return on investment. For instance, my current magnum has been living in my pocket since 2010, and it is not much different, cosmetically than it was when new. I don't even notice it is there. If it weight 2 1/2 ounces instead of 6, how much more would I want to spend? Would it be unchanged mechanically if it were an alloy? My LR was carried from 1977 until 2010. The only difference is the engraving I had done about 10 years ago. Would an alloy gun be able to make those claims? How many times would it have needed to go back for mechanical repairs? That is, vs the none (not counting the safety notch update)?

Now, if we were to discuss the Guardian, I may we'll be on your side of this discussion. I feel it is too heavy for its power level/size.

Ditto.

[Setarip]

Mechanically it should be roughly the same. They could even continue using the same hammer and trigger parts. The only physical difference would be the frame, cylinder, pin, and barrel material. It's not needed per se, but then again, the NAA gun variety is just plain fun.

My airweight 642 is very durable. The alloy frames even handle .357 (even though most hands and wrists cannot at that weight). This is just a fun idea. I think they could be made as inexpensively as their current offering, in fact, the s&w airweights sell for a decent amount less than the stainless counterparts.

Maybe this idea makes more sense in the black widow model. They are still small and lightweight, but I have heard many arguments for getting a keltec p32 since it's roughly the same size and weight. A black widow at half the weight would be cool as well.

[cbl51]

As you may have guessed, this has been kicked around before. Seems the powers that be feel the effort would not be worth the return on investment. For instance, my current magnum has been living in my pocket since 2010, and it is not much different, cosmetically than it was when new. I don't even notice it is there. If it weight 2 1/2 ounces instead of 6, how much more would I want to spend? Would it be unchanged mechanically if it were an alloy? My LR was carried from 1977 until 2010. The only difference is the engraving I had done about 10 years ago. Would an alloy gun be able to make those claims? How many times would it have needed to go back for mechanical repairs? That is, vs the none (not counting the safety notch update)?

Now, if we were to discuss the Guardian, I may we'll be on your side of this discussion. I feel it is too heavy for its power level/size.

This!!!!

The weight saving in a mini revolver would be negligible, bu the Guardian needs a diet. For a small pocket .380 to weigh in at 20 ounces is pretty bad. Sorry great folks at NAA, but the Guardian is a pig. For that weight I can carry a S&W airtight .38 special for less weight. With competition in the pocket size .380 class of guns from Ruger's LCP and the Kel-Tech stuff, the Guardian needs a diet badly. Alloy frame is a step in that direction.

[redhawk4]

Everyone beat me too it. The mini revolvers are light enough IMO that any savings would tend to be the solution to a problem that  no one has. Given the price premium for a lighter frame, NAA could quickly find it's the nicest gun that almost no one ever bought.

On the Guardian 380 I've always felt a lightweight frame would update the package, even though I've not found the weight to be the issue many feel it to be. It seems given the amount of metal in it there could be a good saving despite the need for a steel barrel insert into the frame.

[Uncle_Lee]

OK, OK, don't lay your mini down on the nightstand.
It might float away..

[redhawk4]

OK, OK, don't lay your mini down on the nightstand.
It might float away..

You might think your shoe box was empty and throw it away

[Uncle_Lee]

OK, OK, don't lay your mini down on the nightstand.
It might float away..

You might think your shoe box was empty and throw it away

A mini is so lite now that I wouldn't know it was in my pocket if it wasn't for bulk.

[Ruger]

IMHO, the Minis impress when you hand them over to one that is unfamiliar with NAA and their offerings.  They are solidly built and feel like the real thing.  I would hate to be packing something that others' first impression was that it felt like a light weight toy.  'Just done see the market for them. 

The Guardian .380 is another story.  I have only ever held the .380 version.  At over 20 oz, it does feel like a brick compared to my Sig P238 at 15 oz.  Both are all metal frames.

[kc]

Another thing to remember is that making the Guardian significantly lighter would also make perceived recoil significantly greater. "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction". The most common critique (that I've heard from others & seen on the web) of the .380 LCP and others like it, is the discomfort (for many) in actually firing it... and associated issues (including reluctance to practice & resulting lack of skill, confidence, etc.).
Would likely work well for the smaller calibers, though.

[Ruger]

I own both the Sig P238 and the Ruger LCP, and have only held the Guardian at the LGS.  The LCP has twice the felt recoil compared to the P238.  The P238 is the softest shooter I've ever had.  I love handing it over after someone has tried the LCP.  The slide is easy to rack, the recoil easy, the trigger is sweet and breaks like glass, and it has the manual of arms of the 1911.  Once you try a P238, you would never buy an LCP.  Yeah, the P238  is twice the price of the LCP.  You get what you pay for . . .

[cbl51]

Another thing to remember is that making the Guardian significantly lighter would also make perceived recoil significantly greater. "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction". The most common critique (that I've heard from others & seen on the web) of the .380 LCP and others like it, is the discomfort (for many) in actually firing it... and associated issues (including reluctance to practice & resulting lack of skill, confidence, etc.).
Woulkd likely work well for the smaller calibers, though.

This is absolutely true. Newtons law holds. But, in a small self defense weapon do we want comfortable firing or more comfortable carry for long periods of time?

I've shot the Ruger LCP, and it is a lively little gun when it goes off. But it's a dream to carry. Kind of like an air weight J frame S&W with plus P .38 loads. Sharp recoil, but it's gonna hurt a lot more on the other end. For 99.9% of the encounters you may use the Guardian .380, the range is going to be about 7 or 8 feet. You won't even need sights at that range. If the Guardian had an aluminum frame it would be a huge plus in an all day everyday carry gun. Yeah, it's gonna kick a bit more, but you're not shooting a target gun and putting a hundred rounds through it at a time.

I know I'd buy a Guardian if it were lighter. But with it similar is weight and cost to a S&W 642, I go with the S&W. The revolver is almost half the weight.

[Canoeal]

I would want to know that when I point the gun is is going to be accurate. That only comes from practice and familiarity. So If I need to practice, it won't be with a gun that is uncomfortable to use...

[seaotter]

I have a Taurus m85, a J frame clone, that weighs 17 ounces. Loaded it weighs a considerable amount. Loaded, the Guardian weighs a bit less than the the M85. I know that S&W makes a much lighter version of the J frame, but I can't imagine shooting it. My revolver kicks quite a bit when shooting +P rounds. I would also love to have an aluminum  framed Guardian, but I suspect  that it wouldn't be everybody's cup of tea. And, besides, there already is a lighter version of the Guardian. It's called a Seecamp!

[rogertc1]

I've a Taurus View with is titanium and aluminum. No longer made.

[cbl51]

I have a Taurus m85, a J frame clone, that weighs 17 ounces. Loaded it weighs a considerable amount. Loaded, the Guardian weighs a bit less than the the M85. I know that S&W makes a much lighter version of the J frame, but I can't imagine shooting it. My revolver kicks quite a bit when shooting +P rounds. I would also love to have an aluminum  framed Guardian, but I suspect  that it wouldn't be everybody's cup of tea. And, besides, there already is a lighter version of the Guardian. It's called a Seecamp!

My old S&W bodyguard was like 14 ounces. I never shot plus P in it, and with woodcutters or regular .38 special rounds it was not a bad shooter at all. With target loads it was actually pleasant to shoot and a 50 round box was not bad. I should never have sold it, and am considering a new S&W airtight. A mild wadcutter or semi wadcutter load is a nice defense load. Jim Cirillo swore by the wadcutters in his revolvers.

There's really no reason a .380 auto should be heavier than a small .38 special revolver. The Guardian needs a diet.

[redhawk4]

I've never found the weight of the Guardian 380 to really be an issue, but feel a lighter framed one would renew interest in the model. While comparisons over the weight with J frames have some validity, the reality is that a Guardian 380 is much narrower and easier to pocket carry, a J frame looks really bulky in the pocket of your jeans, so regardless of weight the Guardian is more pleasant to carry for me. If I go to the size (particularly the thickness) of the J frame then there are many other options like a 9mm Semi Auto that can be carried just as easily, often more so. Just my observations, I have a Guardian 380, a few J frames and a Sig 290RS  9mm all of which I have pocket carried at different times, the Guardian gets carried the most because it's the most compact. It is however much easier to shoot a J frame accurately IME, which makes up to a degree for only having 5 shots.

[Scout24]

I would be all over an alloy Mini. Think neck carry, or other unconventional carry. Tucked into your sock. Under an ace bandage. As far as reliability with steady practice use, this is 2017. Metallurgy is a bit better than 20 years ago. I think it wouldn't require any re-engineering, and would sell at least as well as some of the special run models they sell now. Hell, I'd buy one like the Bug Out Box that was .22 only on the Magnum frame! Sign me up!!!

[theysayimnotme]

I've often looked at the mini & thought what I could cut down. Compare to the Freedom Arms & see what could be cut from the barrel, also a bit from the rear of the cylinder & perhaps some from the bottom of the front of the frame. The metal grip could be narrower with perhaps wider rubber or wood grips. Add in lighter metal for the frame.
I've thought that when I win the Lottery I will start making the mini I envision as well as a scaled up .32 ACP.
One way to speed it up would be to take  pre-paid early  bird orders & add that money to my Lottery investments. Anyone who wants I will take orders for the .22 LR @ $!50 & the .32 ACP @ $300. Why can't I get the smileys to work?

[redhawk4]

You are probably correct that there is some metal that could be removed from the minis to make them lighter, it's probably never been looked at intently, or been given undue consideration, because they are already light in relative terms. I also think that these little guns are built with a certain amount of style in mind too, in the same way the big old "space travel" inspired cars of the 50's and 60's wouldn't win any awards for passenger accommodation, compared to the exterior size of the vehicle.

[cbl51]

If NAA really wanted to, there should be no technical reason an alloy mini could not be made. If S&W can make  a 14 ounce J frame .38 special that is rated for plus P ammo, then a itty bitty .22 revolver should be easy. It may even cost less, as machining aluminum is way easier than stainless steel! I know that from all the years I spent cranking on a Bridgeport mill. Stainless steel is a beech to work with. It galls, work hardens, and it's stringy and needs a ton of coolest running on it. A general huge PITA!

How much chamber pressure does a .22 put out compared with a plus P .38?

With a stainless cylinder and barrel, I can't see why an aluminum frame can't be done on a good CNC set up, and be less expensive to boot. My better half's S&W 317 has been shooting since she go tit in 1998, and still going strong. The 8 shot revolver with 3 inch barrel and adjustable sights is 12 ounces. That's silly lightweight.

[Setarip]

.38 special+P is rated at 20,000 psi from what I have found. I believe .22lr is 24,000psi. But remember, s&w TiLite frames handle .357 magnum, and the pressure is 35,000+ psi. I don't think pressures are an issue.

I really do like the density of the mini's, but a "space age" material version would be cool as all get out.

[heyjoe]

The minis are so light already, I dont know how much of a market there would be for an airweight mini....they already are airweight! NAA is a small company with limited capacity for production, so their criteria for prioritization would be totally different than a company like Smith and Wesson. That and the fact that there is a market for airweight J, K, L,and even N frames. I personally would rather a 32 acp mini than an airweight mini.

If NAA really wanted to, there should be no technical reason an alloy mini could not be made. If S&W can make  a 14 ounce J frame .38 special that is rated for plus P ammo, then a itty bitty .22 revolver should be easy. It may even cost less, as machining aluminum is way easier than stainless steel! I know that from all the years I spent cranking on a Bridgeport mill. Stainless steel is a beech to work with. It galls, work hardens, and it's stringy and needs a ton of coolest running on it. A general huge PITA!

How much chamber pressure does a .22 put out compared with a plus P .38?

With a stainless cylinder and barrel, I can't see why an aluminum frame can't be done on a good CNC set up, and be less expensive to boot. My better half's S&W 317 has been shooting since she go tit in 1998, and still going strong. The 8 shot revolver with 3 inch barrel and adjustable sights is 12 ounces. That's silly lightweight.

[Warthog]

I am a little bit unsure why a person would need an airweight when they are so lightweight as they stand.  None of the ones I own are light as air, a heavier one might be more logical as it would make recoil easier and be faster to follow up.  I am with HeyJoe, this isn't the best idea I have heard here but then I am not that much of a knowledge base myself.

[theysayimnotme]

If NAA really wanted to, there should be no technical reason an alloy mini could not be made. If S&W can make  a 14 ounce J frame .38 special that is rated for plus P ammo, then a itty bitty .22 revolver should be easy. It may even cost less, as machining aluminum is way easier than stainless steel! I know that from all the years I spent cranking on a Bridgeport mill. Stainless steel is a beech to work with. It galls, work hardens, and it's stringy and needs a ton of coolest running on it. A general huge PITA!

How much chamber pressure does a .22 put out compared with a plus P .38?

With a stainless cylinder and barrel, I can't see why an aluminum frame can't be done on a good CNC set up, and be less expensive to boot. My better half's S&W 317 has been shooting since she go tit in 1998, and still going strong. The 8 shot revolver with 3 inch barrel and adjustable sights is 12 ounces. That's silly lightweight.

I was thinking of aluminum/titanium or aluminum/scandium alloys. How hard are those to machine in comparison to stainless steel?
I used to work for Stoody Co & I am aware of how hard it was to machine Cobalt alloys but there has been a lot of experience in the nearly fifty years since then.

[MR_22]

I've a Taurus View with is titanium and aluminum. No longer made.

I have one of those, too, and it's a beast to shoot, even with non +P ammo (which it's not rated for). It's sure easy to carry, tho.

And even though the View is no longer made, I think they're still making the Non-View with a solid side plate instead of a transparent one.

[RogueTS1]

but you're not shooting a target gun and putting a hundred rounds through it at a time.

Says who? When the Princess and I take the Guardian or the LCP to the range at least 100 rounds is ran through both. I still have never found the lightweight .380's to have obnoxious recoil. They feel like a tame 9mm to us.

[Canoeal]

I looked at all the NAAs when I bought mine. I picked the slightly larger BW for good reasons the weight was one at almost 9 oz., the 2" barrel was one and the fact they had real sights was one. The larger grip was secondary, 'cause I knew I would change it...
I don't want something too light to control, but that is just me. I like things built right.

[bill_deshivs]

An alloy frame on the Guardian is impractical, if not impossible. The frame is too thin in spots to be alloy.
Most of the Guardian's weight is in the slide, anyway. Mine has been lightened about as much as can be, and it didn't make much difference at all.

[redhawk4]

I would have thought there is a lot of weight in the barrel area  too, that's a big piece of stainless steel.

[cbl51]

If NAA really wanted to, there should be no technical reason an alloy mini could not be made. If S&W can make  a 14 ounce J frame .38 special that is rated for plus P ammo, then a itty bitty .22 revolver should be easy. It may even cost less, as machining aluminum is way easier than stainless steel! I know that from all the years I spent cranking on a Bridgeport mill. Stainless steel is a beech to work with. It galls, work hardens, and it's stringy and needs a ton of coolest running on it. A general huge PITA!

How much chamber pressure does a .22 put out compared with a plus P .38?

With a stainless cylinder and barrel, I can't see why an aluminum frame can't be done on a good CNC set up, and be less expensive to boot. My better half's S&W 317 has been shooting since she go tit in 1998, and still going strong. The 8 shot revolver with 3 inch barrel and adjustable sights is 12 ounces. That's silly lightweight.

I was thinking of aluminum/titanium or aluminum/scandium alloys. How hard are those to machine in comparison to stainless steel?
I used to work for Stoody Co & I am aware of how hard it was to machine Cobalt alloys but there has been a lot of experience in the nearly fifty years since then.

I don't know about the titanium or scandium. Most of our work was with the aluminum like 6061, and similar alloys. When compared to milling stainless steel, it was like cutting balsa wood compared to seasoned oak. The aluminum cut clean and chips few out with no problems. But the 304 and 303 stainless that was milled was tough stuff. The stringy wire like stuff that came off was tough, wouldn't let go, and if you didn't use a steady stream of coolant on the tool, it went to hell quick. Hated working with stainless.

Only after becoming a machinist did understand why when S&W first started making stainless revolvers in the 1960's, did I get why they said that a tool bit would last through 20 to 30 cylinders of making a blued revolver, but with the stainless cylinder they got about 10 to 12 cylinders done before the tool was trashed.

[franco22]

Says who? When the Princess and I take the Guardian or the LCP to the range at least 100 rounds is ran through both. I still have never found the lightweight .380's to have obnoxious recoil. They feel like a tame 9mm to us.

I agree with this statement. My current pocket 380's are a Pico and an RM380. I can put 100 rounds through either of them in a range session without any discomfort.
I don't see the need to lighten up the minis. They are already extremely light.

[seaotter]

It does seem as if a lot of the Guardians weight is in the slide. If that is in fact the case, then it could not be lightened too much, as the heavy slide is what makes the blow-back action possible.

[redhawk4]

It does seem as if a lot of the Guardians weight is in the slide. If that is in fact the case, then it could not be lightened too much, as the heavy slide is what makes the blow-back action possible.

I just finished giving my 380 Guardian a deep clean, even had the hammer spring out because I thought the trigger felt "gritty" yesterday at the range. I forgot to weigh the parts before putting it back together, but can confirm the weight of the slide is very significant relative to the weight of the frame from the feel of it, one piece in either hand. Also as Bill Deshivs pointed out the frame is very thin in places, so I don't know that it would hold up in aluminum, or that you'd save that much weight with the whole project unless you could make the slide much lighter, but that would present it's own problems.