Defensive shooting

[rooftopkorean]

How do y'all shoot your mini revolvers? I have seen people cock with their left while pulling the trigger with their right. Or they use only their right hand to cock the hammer and pull the trigger.

Is the most efficient way to shoot during a defensive situation to use both hands?

[redhawk4]

This is a bit of a "how long's a piece of string" question depending on how the SD incident goes down.

With single action guns I find generally cocking the gun with one hand while firing it with the other gives me the best combination of the fastest and most accurate shots. However IMO you also need to be be proficient in cocking and shooting with just the one hand too, because at very close range you will likely be using one arm to ward of the attacker while shooting single handed.

I'm not sure there's a definitive answer because of circumstances and the individual, we all do things best, how it works for us. It's also hard for me to advise others because I'm left handed in most things, but right handed in others. I write with my left hand, but use scissors with my right, I used to shoot a long gun right handed and a handgun with my left, somewhere in my early 40's that changed to shooting a handgun with my right from preference although it does not feel strange to use my left hand for that, like it does with a pair of scissors. In short depending on circumstances, I could be firing the mini with either hand and using either hand to cock the hammer. I sometimes carry a pocket handgun in both my left and right front pockets, as I can draw and fire with equal speed from either.

Probably my best advice is to practice playing around with the gun and dry firing to get yourself as familiar as you can with all the combinations. In an SD situation you never know how it's going  to go, so the more "familiar" options you have the better IMO.

[Canoeal]

I never gave that much thought, but I do cock with my dominant hand, and I do practice one handed, as well as two. Easier not to change for me.

[Warthog]

Well, in practice I draw then cock the hammer with my thumb and then shoot.

[rooftopkorean]

I suppose I will just have to start practicing and see what I like and what is the most efficient. I have never had a mini and I never carried a single action either.

I'll most likely update with a report on what the best method is for me.

Thanks all

[cbl51]

Since the mini is a gun for very close range, I practice with just one hand. But then, since my first three guns were all single action western style guns, and I grew up watching Have Gun Will Travel, Gunsmoke, and Yancy Derringer, single action shooting became natural to me.

The NAA mini is a 'get off me gun' so most times my practice is at three yards point shooting at paper plates, one handed, fast as I can thumb back the hammer. The rubber grips help, or just wrap the grips with hockey stick tape for better grip.

At 5 yards and under all my shooting is one hand. Col. Rex Applegate did a lot of experimenting in this style, and at close range it works pretty good.

[zburkett]

I am usually shoot my double action revolvers single action, I'm just more accurate that way.  Cock and fire right handed. 

[Dinadan]

I always shoot with one hand. Here is my favorite self defense exercise. I do it in the woods using a large long needle pine tree for a back stop. I pin a target on the tree then back up six feet. Then I draw and from my normal carry pocket and fire one round from the hip, more or less. Second and third rounds actually aimed. I pay more attention to precision of movement than to speed. Something I learned from martial arts - first learn to do it right, then learn to speed it up.

You might be surprised just how easy it is to miss center of mass at six feet if you have never tried shooting from the hip, and you definitely need to practice drawing and cocking in one motion. Ultimately, I think that the technique you use is a lot less important that practicing it a lot. And being alert to your surroundings is more important still, in my opinion.

[Canoeal]

I shoot my NAAs one handed, strong side and two handed. Since I think changing how I pull the hammer makes no sense, I pull with the strong side, shooting hand. I shoot my Charter both single and double action, 1 hand strong side, and two hands single and double. I still pull the hammer back with my strong hand. JMO, but it makes no sense for me to change when I am shooting with a two handed stance... KISS...

[Scott Free]

I practice with one hand and with two. When shooting one-handed, I cock the hammer with the thumb of that hand. When shooting two handed, my grip is such that the thumb of my weak hand is wrapped around my strong hand (meaning the weak handed thumb is conveniently located right behind the hammer) so I cock it with the weak hand thumb. I wrestled with this same question in the past. Eventually, I realized that I don't really think about it when shooting. It's just totally natural (at least for me) to cock the hammer with the weak hand thumb when shooting two handed.

[LHB]

It is my understanding that in a defensive situation, getting that first shot off before the other guy, as long as it hits him, is most important, and at the ranges where a belly gun is being used, the one arm is being used to ward off the punk, so you won't have that second hand to use to cock the hammer.  Some where some time I think I read an article that told of the number of LEOs who had shot their own weak arm while warding off an attacker, and the importance of keeping that arm away from the firearm if under 3 yards or so.  They talked about the first shot from the hip, as the gun clears the holster, and then bringing it to eye level to aim, and if you have time to aim, you probably have time for the two handed hold, but that is not at point blank range.

[David Culp]

I'm definitely one handed both hands at the same time. Of course practice two handed as well.

[cbl51]

NYPD Discovers Sight-Shooting Not Used in CQB
BY DAN ZIMMERMAN |JUL 20, 2013 |82 COMMENTS
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By John V.


The 2011 NYPD Annual Firearms Discharge Report drives a stake through the sacred mantra that self defense handgun shots must be aimed using the sights. The NYPD gauges officers' success in close quarters battle (CQB) by the simple measure of whether he or she ultimately hits and stops the subject. That's determined regardless of the number of shots fired at the subject . . .

NYPD Success Rate
There were 36 incidents in 2011 in which officers hit at least one subject per incident 28 times, for a success rate of 78%. When officers were being fired upon, they struck subjects two thirds of the time for a success rate of 66.6% (six out of nine such incidents).

Hit Rate
311 shots were fired by officers in the 36 incidents. The hit rate was 12% (36/311). That means that nine out of ten shots fired missed and went somewhere else. In two of the incidents a high volume of shots were fired. Excluding those, the hit rate was 19% (36/193). Looked at the other way around, eight out of ten shots fired missed and went astray. And in 2011, 1 bystander was killed.

Non-Use of Sights
The hit rate validates the reality that sight shooting just can not be used or is not used in CQB situations. That's supported by the officers themselves. Thirty-four officers (44%) reported that they had used their sights, or 56 percent of the officers shot without them.

Per the NYPD, "utilizing a two-handed grip, standing, and lining up a target using the firearm's sights is the preferred method of discharging a firearm, but it is not always practical during an adversarial conflict." Basically, achieving marksmanship mechanics in close quarters combat, is just "a bridge to far."

The use of the new gauge for success supports the thought that teaching the use of the sights for aiming in real life threat close quarters defensive situations is just a game played on citizens who bought a gun for self defense with the thought that they would be able to use it effectively in their self defense. And the same is true in regard to teaching distance shooting to citizens for self defense use, or the inclusion of combat reloading in drills and training courses.

Now, there are alternative methods of shooting at close quarters distances that don't rely on the use of the sights. They are simple, effective, and easier and quicker to learn than sight shooting.

And they don't rely on the mechanics of pistol shooting in a controlled environment which include a "proper grip, sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control, and breath control. All of these require a degree of concentration and fine motor skills. Unfortunately, in a combat situation, concentration and fine motor skills are sometimes among the first casualties."

The 20% or less hit rate in CQB situations is nothing new. Though it has highlighted the need for training in alternative shooting methods, institutionalized dogma and established training programs have squelched and stomped out such heretical thoughts and measures.

Hopefully, the official recognition by the NYPD of the reality of adversarial conflicts will result in adjustments or modifications to existing firearms training programs.

That would be good, as one has the greatest chance of being shot and/or killed in CQB instances. Continuing to train only in sight shooting — and sending 8 out of 10 shots somewhere other than the target —  is a recipe for disaster.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Just thought I'd put this out there. I'd read many times over the years on how some studies showed that the street thugs would out shoot the cops. That the cops had a high degree of misses at close range while the criminal shot the cop.

When I was a kid, I remember some of the guys who went through WW2 saying how you point a gun at close range. Like pointing your finger. Later, I got a copy of Col. Rex Applegate's book, "Kill Or Be Killed" or something like that. Applegate did a lot of training of troops in WW2, and he was a strong advocate of the point shooting style. William Fairbirn stated the same thing, and that guy was a vetern of some heavy duty stuff in the Shanghai police in the old days in China.

Jim Cirillo also was a strong advocate for point shooting, and even would tape over the guns of his trainees to teach using just the profile of the gun while pointing, and concentrating on the target.

Food for thought.

[JRobyn]

This is why all the talk about which sights are best on your NAA is just silly.  NAA knows what they are doing by just putting a simple little bead sight on most of them.  They will never be target guns.  Although, I will be the first one to carefully aim and try for accuracy with mine ;-)

[Boisesteve]

Once upon a long time ago, a first-gen Glock 17 took me from the bottom of the qualification list to near the top. But over the decades since, I've become a single-action revolver guy.  Ruger Blackhawk .357 and NAA minis, same basic manual of arms.  All have oversize grips, a Hogue on the Blackhawk and wood or rubber on the NAAs.  I shoot two-handed: rapid right hand draw while bringing my left hand up to cock and two-hand grip the gun in use. Usually I practice a very rapid type of sight acquisition.  As the gun is coming up I'm aligning it down the barrel with the target.  I see the front sight with a flash image on target and fire.  My practice is usually at 21 feet, aiming at empty plastic 16 oz bottles I've thrown out there. Make them dance, 5-round NAA or 6-round Ruger vs three bottles, one or two shots at each then on to the next.  Change up the order sometimes.
I also practice careful aimed sighted fire with the Blackhawk at much-further-away paper targets. Slow shooting, easy breathing, shoot at the bottom of the respiratory cycle with empty lungs and still body.
As they say, your methods may vary....
Steve in Boise

[Canoeal]

I wonder if that is not a reason to recommend grip activated lasers... You wouldn't need to line up the sights by eye , just point the laser and shoot. Just wondering...Not necessarily for NAA in defense, but for LEOs

[Kevin55]

Doesn't the NYPD issue Glocks with that horrible 10lb NYPD trigger?  It was to make it like shooting a double action revolver with every pull.

Yes, most practice shooting in a two hand stance, not a quick point shoot.  Practice how you play.
Do both. And some weak hand shooting.

I heard the argument, if a bad guy is willing to shoot a cop, he isn't going to worry about hitting a civilian around them. Cops need to worry about NOT hitting innocent people.  It's one more thing to clutter the thought process.

[LHB]

Twenty years ago or so I took a wing shooting class for DNR Hunter Safety Instructors, taught by the man who used to be the instructor for L. L. Bean.  He started us pointing our finger at a stationary target, Look/Lock on, Half Step toward target, Point, Pow, then went to Daisy's with no sights at fifteen feet, then the Daisy on a swinging whiffle ball, and then to a 28 gauge on clays.  He had us lay our finger along the forearm, and told us to just point our finger at what we wanted to hit, he said to point at either the eye or the tail on a flushing pheasant, and that was where we would hit.  We spent an hour or so with the Daisy's before going to the shotguns, and He also said that if he had us for another two hours with the Daisy's, we would be hitting tossed aspirin.   He also said that with a shotgun, you show me a man who aims a shotgun, and I will shot you a man that misses.

The next session was taught by a man from the Illinois Bowhunters, and his technique with a traditional bow was to point your finger at the target, under the arrow rest, and that was where the arrow would go.

[Rick_Jorgenson]

This is why all the talk about which sights are best on your NAA is just silly.  NAA knows what they are doing by just putting a simple little bead sight on most of them.  They will never be target guns.  Although, I will be the first one to carefully aim and try for accuracy with mine ;-)

The number of threads dedicated to "Adjustable Sights" & "Why Doesn't my .22lr w/1-1/8" Barrel come with Adjustable Sights"  makes me insane! lol!!

You would get the impression some folks want to be snipers and take out targets at 100 yards 

These guns do their best for close, surprise encounters with a perp that is within 3 to 10 feet of you and does not think you have a gun.

Great article cbl51!   Now,  everyone go practice shooting not aiming!    I'm always glad when I hit the paper target!  If it's in a "ring" even better! lol!!

[cbl51]

Look at history if you want to see defense handguns. What kind of sights came on the Remington over under derringer? Or the 1908 Colt/Browning vest pocket .25? The Sharps 4 barrel derringer was a popular gun in it's day, and had only the mere bead of a sight. Even today, the off the shelf Smith and Wesson model 60 variants like the 642, 637, all have the most minimum sights because they are designed for the close encounter of the ugly kind that happens at about 6 feet.

When I had to shoot that guy in the alley when I was 18, it was dark, and close and fast. I was scared s---less, and the guy had already got one swing in on my head with his small crowbar, missing me by a few inches.  The range was little over arms reach, and I just stuck the gun out and shot from a shallow crouch, pointing the gun in his direction. Range was so close that it hit. No time, no thought, no aiming. Just scared witless point and shoot. I really think that the only thing that saved my life that night was, that I had had that little .22 for a few months, liked it, and shot it down by the river bank several times just for fun. So I was familiar with it. It was my only gun at that time, and it got handled a lot. My hand knew the feel of it, and how it pointed at those empty milk cartons. A box of .22 shorts was like 50 cents, so I used a lot of them. I really believe that if I had slowed down to try to find the brass bead that was the front sight on that little gun, he'd have bashed my head in before I had time to shoot.

No matter what gun you carry for defense, it doesn't really matter. All that matters is, you like it, will practice with it, handle it a lot to be intimately familiar with it in your hand. The better you know it, the better you will be able to point shoot at close range. And the mini IS a close range gun. Putting adjustable sights on a derringer size handgun is a bit ridiculous. All it needs to do is be able to hold minute of paper plate at 6 to 8 feet or so in a hurry.

Wyatt Earp was a real person with real world experience. In his later life he became friends with Tom Mix. Mix had made a movie on the shootout at the Okay Corral, and got to know Earp. Earp had given him  pointers and advice on looking like he knew how to handle a gun. He was very critical of the shooting from the hip that the movies were portraying. He told Mix to always raise the gun to eye level and point it at the man you were were trying to shoot. Mix asked him about the time it took to raise the pistol, and Earp said to 'take your time in a hurry.'

Sems like Earp was the only swinging Richard at the Okay Corral that didn't get shot, he must have been dong something right that day. There is a common thread running though his advice and that of Jim Cirillo, Rex Applegate, Bill Jordan, and others that have actually been there and back and lived to tell the tale.

[grayelky]

The article posted by cbl51 is very informative, and provides some good insight - into their training methods. The post by Kevin55 reveals why their hit ratio is so low. Majority of their practice was 2 handed, arms extended, aim at the target. I strongly suspect their study has changed their training methods today. At least I hope so. Innovation and change in law enforcement circles moves like a glacier. I sincerely hope they have changed their "New York trigger", which was developed to mimic a double action revolver, so there would be less "acccidental discharges" with the new fangled automatic plastic pistols. We can learn from their study. Most instances were close and one handed shots, if I remember correctly. Our practice should be mostly one handed. If you are going to carry a single action revolver, practice WITH AN EMPTY GUN, (easy with NAA, cylinder should be removed), bringing it up to eye level, pointing it at a target and pull, not jerk, the trigger. You should not lower your head, rather bring the gun all the way to eye level. The hammer should be all the way back and your grip acquired prior to getting there. Once you' see your target, squeeze the trigger. Do not work on speed. Work on smooth. Smooth is fast. Want to get faster? Practice being smooth, and practice often. During commercials, you watch them? Have your mini lying next to your chair. You don't even have to stand up. Bring your gun to eye level, point at the clock on the wall, and squeeze. Once you think you have that down, point at a number, or the center of the clock. Once you get that down, you should have noticed you are much smoother than you were when ever you started this. And, yes, it will likely take more than one evening. Did you change hands every other commercial? Why not? Ever study any of the martial arts? Do any boxing? To survive a n those sports, you cannot take time to think, "he dropped his shoulder, shifted his weight and is leaning.... is he going to kick or punch?" You do that and when you come to, someone can tell you. You have to react without thinking, but, you cannot be wrong. If you have to think about the punch you want to throw, you will never land it. If your are thinking about a punch, you may well miss an opportunity to deliver a fight stopping kick.

Boise Steve has a very good post about how he practices. If you are relatively new to single actions, you should go back and reread his post. You would also do well to reread cbl51's post about his personal life experience. It will be over before you fully realize it is happening. If you have to stop and think, you will lose. If you have to unbutton a jacket to get to your firearm, you will come out in second place. If that did not bring back a book title, you need to read up on Bill Jordan, a US Border Patrol officer, who authored the book, "No Second Place Winner". Let that title sink in.

To many on here, I am just wasting electrons, as this is old info for them. The last thing I want to do is bore the fine folks on this forum. If I get enough private messages, I will fight my urge to ramble on, and I assure you, at my tender age, my skin is quite thick, and I do not take very much personal.

[Canoeal]

This is why all the talk about which sights are best on your NAA is just silly.  NAA knows what they are doing by just putting a simple little bead sight on most of them.  They will never be target guns.  Although, I will be the first one to carefully aim and try for accuracy with mine ;-)

No, sights are used for more than defensive, quick shot shooting. If that is all they were used for, your statement might have some merit, but if it is used for plinking, targets or any other use, sights can be used, and therefore the better the sights all else equal, the more usable the gun. To say "it is in my pocket for the one of two times in my life I might need it", is ridiculous to me. If I want reasonably good, or at least BTA sights, it is not for you to say it is silly. I have put about 1000 rounds through my BW  (target shooting) and not having usable sights is to take away my fun. You make your choices, I will make mine. We do, as I have been reminded several times on this forum, need respect each others opinions.

[Dinadan]

Very good points made here by both JRobyn and by Canoeal. I have shot thousands of rounds out of my NAAs plinking, and never one single round in self defense. So yes, I do like the better (in my opinion) sights on the Sidewinder, Earl, and Black Widow. The sights make plinking more fun than with the original Magnum Mini. However, when I am carefully shooting at a target at twenty five feet or more and trying to get a good group, that is not practicing self defense. That is having fun. The title of the thread is Defensive shooting, and I think that JRobyn is substantially correct about defensive shooting.

[pietro]

.

Years ago, quickly learned & got used to, using a 2-hand hold with my Mini's, for all shooting situations short of a close-in belly shot.

I hold the grip tightly in the fist of my dominant hand, and operate the hammer/trigger with the off hand.

      


.

[Scott Free]

For some of us, "defensive shooting" might include a rabid raccoon or a couple of threatening dogs in the woods. In such cases, I much prefer two hands and sights.

[boots]

I practice Both styles of shooting because both have their use. I hunt with a Blackhawk but always have a BW in my pocket. Because I often use the BW to get rid of rabbits in the garden I use it's sights but practice shooting cans and such just pointing. I can hit pretty regularly with in 10 feet or so but not at 30 or 40 which is rabbit range. I carry the BW because it has useful sights but if I only carried for SD the sights would not make much difference. Like others have said practice is paramount.

[WECSOG]

I cock my Magnum frames with my dominant hand, and my LR with my weak hand.

[Canoeal]

Very good points made here by both JRobyn and by Canoeal. I have shot thousands of rounds out of my NAAs plinking, and never one single round in self defense. So yes, I do like the better (in my opinion) sights on the Sidewinder, Earl, and Black Widow. The sights make plinking more fun than with the original Magnum Mini. However, when I am carefully shooting at a target at twenty five feet or more and trying to get a good group, that is not practicing self defense. That is having fun. The title of the thread is Defensive shooting, and I think that JRobyn is substantially correct about defensive shooting.

MAybe I did not make myself clear. No, you may not have time or under stress you may not use your sights from 5' away in a defensive shooting .I probably won't either. But also likely, you will not have time to reload any revolver in a defensive situation, so why do you need a BT? (I still have and use speed loaders for my CA.) But I choose to use my gun to shoot targets, and pest control, in addition to carrying for SD. Do I need a different gun to shoot targets?  If I am purchasing, I want my gun to be the best possible combination possible for all uses and then that includes sights; and BTA is what I want. That is why I chose the BW; I think it is the best combination for all the jobs I want it to do. If you are never going to shoot it except in SD, then buy however you want. I just said calling my wish for sights, and good ones silly, is not Robyn's call to make. And  in several SD scenario's like someone entering your home and going through your house light on, in another room (a scenario BTW, the USCC brought up) then even night sights have a place in a defensive weapon. Or someone in front of your car headlights on, while you are crouched behind; good usable, even night sights, are an option. Not every scenario is a mugger 3' away. To each his own.
BTW my perfect little gun? A BW with Pug's tritium sights, that is the only change I would like.