Are we the tiny minority?

[redhawk4]

You missed the caveat of the premise. I said "I still am pretty sure the 22 mag, out of a BW, outperforms a 25acp out of a mouse semi auto".

According to the NAA ballistic tables they are near enough the same out of a BW. The debate I often have is do I want 9 shots that can be fired in an instant, or 5 with the possible advantages of a revolver.

[WECSOG]

What about a 22 Hornet or K-Hornet?  There are two very obscure loads that also maybe used,if we are talking about reloading and those would be the Velodog and 22JRG.

Just a thought.

                                                                                    Top Dog

I don't think .22 Hornet would work either. Even more so in fact. I'm pretty sure .25/20 is too long for a Bearcat cylinder; .22 Hornet would be both too long and too high pressure. IMO, .25 acp would be just about ideal.
For the kind of performance you're talking about, Ruger makes the Single Seven in .327 Fed Mag that fits that bill perfectly. 

[glenn]

Quite evident here .. that SOMEONE ... has never actually seen a 22 hornet round.

.

[redhawk4]

Quite evident here .. that SOMEONE ... has never actually seen a 22 hornet round.

.

Wouldn't the taper on the case be an issue for a revolver? It might tend to expand the case and cause a cylinder jam, like the .17 ammo did in the NAA.

[WECSOG]

Quite evident here .. that SOMEONE ... has never actually seen a 22 hornet round.

.

Wouldn't the taper on the case be an issue for a revolver? It might tend to expand the case and cause a cylinder jam, like the .17 ammo did in the NAA.

I think you're right. I've heard the S&W .22 Jet revolvers had that problem too.

[WECSOG]

Quite evident here .. that SOMEONE ... has never actually seen a 22 hornet round.

.

Not sure which of us you're referring to, but I have a .22 Hornet and reload for it.

[glenn]

Not sure which of us you're referring to, but I have a .22 Hornet and reload for it.

Then YOU know how ridiculous a 22 hornet for a small revolver sounds.
Especially in the context of 22 mag or .25 auto choices.

$0.02


.

[WECSOG]

Not sure which of us you're referring to, but I have a .22 Hornet and reload for it.

Then YOU know how ridicules a 22 hornet for a small revolver sounds.
Especially in the context of 22 mag or .25 auto choices.

$0.02


.

I'm not gonna fault the guy for wanting to join in the discourse. That's one way you learn about stuff like this.
Besides, while .22 Hornet isn't workable in a small revolver, that's not to say a cartridge based on the Hornet case can't be.
I think it was Paco Kelly who reamed one chamber of his old model Bearcat to .22 Mag. Or maybe it was Jim Taylor. Anyway, it proves that it can be done. That's probably about the longest cartridge that will fit, though. I just measured a Hornady Critical Defense .22 Mag cartridge, and the OAL of the loaded round is 1.33 inches. According to my Speer No. 10 reloading manual, an unloaded .22 Hornet case is 1.403 inches. I just measured a Remington 45 grain factory Hornet load at 1.67 inches overall. That won't fit in a Single Six, let alone a Bearcat. In fact there are some Hornet loads that would be too long for a Blackhawk cylinder.

Having said all that though, the Hornet case is just about the perfect diameter to make a straight wall .257 cartridge. You could cut the case to a length that will fit in the cylinder length of a Bearcat with a bullet designed for the .25/20, and that would probably be a pretty useful cartridge. It would probably also give just about the maximum performance a Bearcat is capable of.

[RogueTS1]

Now we are talking some Wild Cat Cartridges!

[redhawk4]

Now we are talking some Wild Cat Cartridges!

I definitely think there's room for a new cartridge on the block in the 22-25 caliber. Either a 25 acp +P or magnum, and/or a 22 that's a bit longer with a stouter case and an FMJ bullet, perhaps centerfire. While the 22 Mag has the advantages of being readily available, it's far too long for pocket pistols and I believe the excess powder blast disrupts the flight of the bullet as it leaves the barrel. With the correct powders a much smaller round could be made with superior ballistics to the 22 Mag.

A cut down Hornet cartridge, or similar might be a great place to start for a small revolver/derringer cartridge.

[RogueTS1]

A decent 6.35 mm cartridge out of a small, well designed auto can do wonderful things. 

[redhawk4]

Now we are talking some Wild Cat Cartridges!

I definitely think there's room for a new cartridge on the block in the 22-25 caliber. Either a 25 acp +P or magnum, and/or a 22 that's a bit longer with a stouter case and an FMJ bullet, perhaps centerfire. While the 22 Mag has the advantages of being readily available, it's far too long for pocket pistols and I believe the excess powder blast disrupts the flight of the bullet as it leaves the barrel. With the correct powders a much smaller round could be made with superior ballistics to the 22 Mag.

A cut down Hornet cartridge, or similar might be a great place to start for a small revolver/derringer cartridge.

Funny it sounds like yopu want a 25NAA. Isn't that what the 25 NAA is? Not exactly the big seller in the NAA lineup...

That's a necked down 380, which is much bigger in case diameter etc. What I want is a straight walled 25, in a compact package like 25 acp. A rimmed version for revolvers perhaps and a semi auto version where you can have 9 or 10 rounds in a really small pistol like the 25 acp ones, but with another 150 fps or so.

IMO, the 25 NAA didn't really offer much over the parent caliber, and others, to become popular, a solution to a problem most didn't feel they had given the gun was still the same size that was needed to fire it. There seems to be a gap in existing calibers in the 22 - 25 range which allows a rather unsuitable cartridge in 22 Mag, to be much more successful than is justified when used in a handgun.

[RogueTS1]

A decent 6.35 mm cartridge out of a small, well designed auto can do wonderful things. 

Oh, and did I mention it makes a wonderful suppressor host for when we feel like not disturbing the neighbors while we defend ourselves.   

[redhawk4]

A decent 6.35 mm cartridge out of a small, well designed auto can do wonderful things. 

Oh, and did I mention it makes a wonderful suppressor host for when we feel like not disturbing the neighbors while we defend ourselves.   

You could shoot it in doors then, I've heard a sheet of newspaper is all you'd need to stop the bullets damaging the walls, heck you could even shoot other family members while they are watching TV, to see if they notice

[LHB]

Remember reading in my dentist office back in the 50's, when handguns were still legal in Canada, about a man who was taking Ruger Single Sixes, changing the hammer/firing pin, and re-chambering for a shortened 22 hornet case.  He wanted a hotter load, and a centerfire that he could re-load his own ammo for.

[redhawk4]

I meant a 32 my mind was thinking 32 NAA, but my point is still the same it's not a straight walled cartridge which makes the gun much larger than what I'm envisaging and that cartridge wouldn't work for a mini revolver.

[Uncle_Lee]

I thought I would post a picture.
Why?
Cause I like pictures..

25acp 25NAA 32acp 32NAA 380acp







I forgot to post the picture.     

[top dog]

cbl51,
I figure that Bill Jordan would indeed pack a Black Widow in 22 magnum. If he appreciated a 22 mag load in an Airweight Chief's Special,I am sure that he would really like a Black Widow that is smaller/lighter.

An added plus is that the 22 magnum ammo today is so much better than the 22 magnum ammo at 50+ years ago.

                                                                                                  Top Dog

[cbl51]

I've never liked guns that I couldn't get ammo for at the next big box store I come to.

Who was the gun writer that said something to the effect of all the great cartridges we need were invented by WW1?

[RogueTS1]

You could shoot it in doors then, I've heard a sheet of newspaper is all you'd need to stop the bullets damaging the walls

I did not know this; I will have to try this when I get home.   

[redhawk4]

I thought I would post a picture.
Why?
Cause I like pictures..

25acp 25NAA 32acp 32NAA 380acp





I forgot to post the picture.     

Great picture illustrating how "fat" the other cartridges are when compared to 25 acp and 22 - if that had been in the picture.

[redhawk4]

You could shoot it in doors then, I've heard a sheet of newspaper is all you'd need to stop the bullets damaging the walls

I did not know this; I will have to try this when I get home.   

From what I've heard in my LGS another benefit of 25 acp is you can't even "take your eye out with it" so you can look down the barrel to check the bullets are coming out 

( Please don't try this at home children )

[redhawk4]

I've never liked guns that I couldn't get ammo for at the next big box store I come to.

Who was the gun writer that said something to the effect of all the great cartridges we need were invented by WW1?

I'm a great believer in the same, I always stick to the traditional calibers if only because of the cost of the ammo due to its availability.

However that doesn't mean there isn't an opening for something more suitable for a small pistol in 22/25 caliber.

I'd still like to see a specialist ammo manufacturer like Double Tap see what they could achieve with 25 acp first.

[RogueTS1]

I personally prefer the straight walled cases when it comes to pistols. I would just use the .380 rather than the .32 NAA.

[WECSOG]

I've never liked guns that I couldn't get ammo for at the next big box store I come to.

Who was the gun writer that said something to the effect of all the great cartridges we need were invented by WW1?

I don't necessarily disagree with the basic premise. .38 Special, .45 Colt, .45 ACP, .30-06, .30-30, 7x57, 8x57, .45/70, .22 Short, Long, Long Rifle and WRF and quite a few other great cartridges existed before WWI.

But .357 Mag, .44 Mag, .308 Winchester, .22-250, .222 Remington, .22 WMR and a lot of other good ones didn't exist. I could get by without .44 Mag and .357 Mag as long as I had .45 Colt and .38 Special. But I really like .22 Mag and .22-250. .222 and .308 too, although they'e not really a necessity.

[top dog]

WECSOG,
I tend to agree with you there,but some of the old ones are still there doing a darn good job.

                                                                                      Top Dog