Are we the tiny minority?

[top dog]

I think that Hornady recently came out with a Critical Defense load for the 25acp and the 32 acp.

I had said this before,I do not want to stop ANY round no matter the caliber.

                                                                                                   Top Dog

[cbl51]

I'm not sure the .25acp needs more oomph or mv. I was watching some videos by this guy, Paul Harrell, and he had a .22 vs the .25 and it was very interesting.

His test material  was pork ribs, bottom round steak, watermelon, and more round stark and another layer of ribs. He was trying to show what damage the small bullets can do. He had the test set up with a layer of round steak as pectorial mussel over a layer of pork ribs over a layer of the large fruit to simulate lung tissue, then an otters layer of ribs, then more round steak.

Both ammo tore through the outer layer of meat, broke/shattered ribs, messed up the water Mellon pretty good, then was stopped by the back layer of ribs/meat. He held up the layer of ribs and flexed them, and you could hear the broken bone pieces rubbing.

That's pretty much what John Browning designed the .25 to do; punch through ribs and into the chest cavity.

The videos by Harrell seem well thought out with out macho BS about them. Just down to earth real world stuff. But then I have great respect for the little .25acp. So did most the men I grew up around.

[top dog]

cbl51,
I agree with you for sure.
When you take a look at some caliber's effectiveness,just think about what John Hinkley did with a piece of junk revolver in 22 lr.

In less then three seconds he had several folks down including the President.

                                                                                              Top Dog

[cbl51]

top dog, this is what puzzles me; you know it, and I know it, and most the people on this forum know it. Yet I walk into a local gun shop, A gun shop where you'd think people know what they are talking about, and they laugh at a mini. I asked about ordering a black Widow, and they young guy behind the outer actually laughed and asked what do I want with a little popgun like that for? and of course he HAD to add the comment that it's little better than a sharp stick.

I don't remember any of this nonsense before the 1970's or there abouts. You'd think the Reagan shooting wold be a red flag to them about how dangerous it is to be shot by anything. Yet these days the small guns get zero respect. I still think there's too many people believing the drivel in the gun magazines.

Edit to add; I found this, and it seems that shooting back with anything works if you know what your doing. Even small calibers. It seems most criminals are devout cowards, and I have in my life failed to find an example of the 300 pound crack addict that it takes an elephant gun to bring down. Can this mean the gun writers and self promoted guru's are "exaggerating"?
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Analysis of Five Years of Armed Encounters (With Data Tables)
MARCH 12 2012BY GSL STAFF
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Incident at a Glance
Gun(s) Used:   Unknown   Location:   Unknown
# of Suspects:   Unknown   Shots Fired:   Unknown
Suspect Killed:   Unknown   State:   
Source:      Archive:   None

Foreword by GunsSaveLives.net
This article was originally written several years ago by Claude Werner. It is republished here, in its entirety (including data tables) with permission.
While the source material is somewhat dated there is still a lot of information we can learn from this. One thing to also note is that the stories used for this study were all situations in which a citizen successfully defended themselves. This means that the study focuses on and shows what works, not what doesn't work.
Author
Claude Werner
Firearms Safety Training LLC
The Armed Citizen – A Five Year Analysis
Overview
For the period 1997 – 2001, reports from "The Armed Citizen" column of the NRA Journals were collected. There were 482 incidents available for inclusion in the analysis. All involved the use of firearms by private citizens in self defense or defense of others. No law enforcement related incidents were included. The database is self-selecting in that no non-positive outcomes were reported in the column.
Analysis
As might be expected, the majority of incidents (52%) took place in the home. Next most common locale (32%) was in a business. Incidents took place in public places in 9% of reports and 7% occurred in or around vehicles.
The most common initial crimes were armed robbery (32%), home invasion (30%), and burglary (18%).
Overall, shots were fired by the defender in 72% of incidents. The average and median number of shots fired was 2. When more than 2 shots were fired, it generally appeared that the defender's initial response was to fire until empty. It appears that revolver shooters are more likely to empty their guns than autoloader shooters. At least one assailant was killed in 34% of all incidents. At least one assailant was wounded in an additional 29% of all incidents. Of the incidents where shots are fired by a defender, at least one assailant is killed in 53% of those incidents.
Handguns were used in 78% of incidents while long guns were used in 13%; in the balance the type of firearm was not reported. The most common size of handgun was the .35 caliber family (.38, .357, 9mm) at 61%, with most .38s apparently being of the 5 shot variety. Mouseguns (.380s and below) were at 23%, and .40 caliber and up at 15%.
The range of most incidents appears to be short but in excess of touching distance. It appears that most defenders will make the shoot decision shortly before the criminal comes within arm's length. Defenders frequently communicate with their attackers before shooting.
The firearm was carried on the body of the defender in only 20% of incidents. In 80% of cases, the firearm was obtained from a place of storage, frequently in another room.
Reloading was required in only 3 incidents. One of those involved killing an escaped lion with a .32 caliber revolver, which was eventually successful after 13 shots.
Multiple conspirators were involved in 36% of the incidents. However, there were no apparent cases of getaway drivers or lookouts acting as reinforcements for the criminal actor(s) once shooting starts. At the sound of gunfire, immediate flight was the most common response for drivers and lookouts.
When multiple conspirators were involved, the first tier was a two man action team. If another member was available, he was usually the driver of the getaway car and remained in the car. If a fourth conspirator was involved, he was stationed immediately outside the target location as a lookout for the police or other possible intervening parties. The outside conspirators do not generally appear to be armed. It does appear that the trend over the period has increased from one weapon in the action team to two weapons.
The largest group of violent criminal actors was 7, a group that committed serial home invasions in Rochester NY. An alert and prepared homeowner, who saw them invade an adjacent home, accessed his shotgun, and dispatched them (2 killed and 1 seriously wounded) when they broke in his door.
Incidents rarely occurred in reaction time (i.e., ¼ second increments). Most commonly, criminals acted in a shark-like fashion, slowly circling and alerting their intended victims. The defender(s) then had time to access even weapons that were stored in other rooms and bring them to bear.
The most common responses of criminals upon being shot were to flee immediately or expire. With few exceptions, criminals ceased their advances immediately upon being shot. Even small caliber handguns displayed a significant degree of instant lethality (30 per cent immediate one shot kills) when employed at close range. Many criminal actors vocally expressed their fear of being shot when the defender displayed a weapon. Upon the criminals' flight, the "victims" frequently chased and captured or shot the criminals and held them for the authorities.
Conclusions
1) Even small caliber weapons are adequate to solve the vast majority of incidents requiring armed self-defense.
2) Mindset of the potential victim was far more important than the type of weapon used. All the victims were willing to fight their opponents in order to survive. Although not common, in some cases bridge weapons, such as pens, were used to gain time to access the firearm.
3) Frequently, the defenders were aware that something was amiss before the action started and then placed themselves in position to access their weapons. Awareness of the surroundings appears to be a key element of successful defense.
4) The defenders had some measure of familiarity with their firearms. Although perhaps not trained in the formal sense, they appear to be able to access a firearm and immediately put it into action. At least one defender learned from a previous experience and made the firearm more accessible for subsequent use.
5) Training or practice with a firearm should include a substantial amount of accessing the firearm from off body locations, such as drawers, underneath counters, etc.
6) This analysis does not present a view of the totality of armed self-defense in that non-positive outcomes were not available for inclusion in the database. The analysis may, however, be useful in helping to describe a methodology for successful armed self-defense. This methodology might be described as:
1. be aware,
2. be willing to fight,
3. have a weapon accessible,
4. be familiar enough with the weapon to employ it without fumbling,
5. when ready, communicate, both verbally and non-verbally, to the attacker that resistance will be given, and
6. if the attacker does not withdraw, counterattack without hesitation.

Location of Incident
Location   %
Home   52%
Business   32%
Public   9%
In/around Vehicle   7%

Shots Fired
Type of Location   No   Yes
Business   33%   72%
Home   25%   75%
Public   29%   71%
In/around Vehicle   35%   65%
Total   28%   72%

Number of Shots Fired
Average   2.2
Median   2
Mode   1
Max   20

Gun Type
Handgun   78%
Long Gun   13%
Unknown   8%

Body Carry
Type of Location   No   Yes
Business   69%   31%
Home   94%   6%
Public   49%   51%
In/around Vehicle   65%   35%
Total   80%   20%

Multiple Assailants
Type of Location   No   Yes
Business   76%   24%
Home   72%   28%
Public   62%   38%
Retail Business   52%   48%
In/around Vehicle   49%   51%
Total   80%   20%
Disqus Comments

[redhawk4]

I'm not sure the .25acp needs more oomph or mv. I was watching some videos by this guy, Paul Harrell, and he had a .22 vs the .25 and it was very interesting.

His test material  was pork ribs, bottom round steak, watermelon, and more round stark and another layer of ribs. He was trying to show what damage the small bullets can do. He had the test set up with a layer of round steak as pectorial mussel over a layer of pork ribs over a layer of the large fruit to simulate lung tissue, then an otters layer of ribs, then more round steak.

Both ammo tore through the outer layer of meat, broke/shattered ribs, messed up the water Mellon pretty good, then was stopped by the back layer of ribs/meat. He held up the layer of ribs and flexed them, and you could hear the broken bone pieces rubbing.

That's pretty much what John Browning designed the .25 to do; punch through ribs and into the chest cavity.

The videos by Harrell seem well thought out with out macho BS about them. Just down to earth real world stuff. But then I have great respect for the little .25acp. So did most the men I grew up around.

I don't know that I disagree, but 25 acp ammo has not really received any attention for any ammo manufacturer other perhaps Hornady to bring it to the modern era. The hornady ammo has some extra MV but is only a 35 grain bullet and I don't know I buy the hollow point part. It does however shoot very well with very low recoil. It just seems if it would receive the same attention the other calibers do, there's more to get out of it, whereas we are stuck with the 50 gr 760 fps.

[cbl51]

I'm not sure the .25acp needs more oomph or mv. I was watching some videos by this guy, Paul Harrell, and he had a .22 vs the .25 and it was very interesting.

His test material  was pork ribs, bottom round steak, watermelon, and more round stark and another layer of ribs. He was trying to show what damage the small bullets can do. He had the test set up with a layer of round steak as pectorial mussel over a layer of pork ribs over a layer of the large fruit to simulate lung tissue, then an otters layer of ribs, then more round steak.

Both ammo tore through the outer layer of meat, broke/shattered ribs, messed up the water Mellon pretty good, then was stopped by the back layer of ribs/meat. He held up the layer of ribs and flexed them, and you could hear the broken bone pieces rubbing.

That's pretty much what John Browning designed the .25 to do; punch through ribs and into the chest cavity.

The videos by Harrell seem well thought out with out macho BS about them. Just down to earth real world stuff. But then I have great respect for the little .25acp. So did most the men I grew up around.

I don't know that I disagree, but 25 acp ammo has not really received any attention for any ammo manufacturer other perhaps Hornady to bring it to the modern era. The hornady ammo has some extra MV but is only a 35 grain bullet and I don't know I buy the hollow point part. It does however shoot very well with very low recoil. It just seems if it would receive the same attention the other calibers do, there's more to get out of it, whereas we are stuck with the 50 gr 760 fps.

Oh, I know I don't want to bother with any hollow point on the .25. I feel with that small and light a bullet at that velocity, the hollow point is not going to open up reliably if at all. With the FMJ at least I know that it will get in deep enough to do what it needs to do if I do my part, of getting them in the right spot.

[top dog]

cbl51,
I agree with you again and what the last part of the last sentence said  "hitting them in the right part" was right on.

And yes,most ,if not all,criminals,are basic cowards. When one goes down,the others flee the area as quickly as possible.

Now,I know that you don't listen to the "gun shop commandos" so let us know when you are getting your Black Widow and a range report too.

                                                                                                             Top Dog

[boone123]

A guy showed me , a couple of weeks ago, where he was shot with a 25 acp. When the guy went to shoot him, he ducked  and moved right . Bullet hit him  upper edge of left shoulder top of his arm.  Bullet went in and skidded under the skin down to the middle of his back. Pain, yep, dead, no...Lucky he saw what was coming. Still here to do show and tell...

[OV-1D]

  Ain't that the dambest thing . Small slow calibers have that tendincy of traveling once they enter . They do the same traveling inside the body , spin ,turn , tear and destroy . Some act like pin balls in a game machine , depends of the powder load . 

[cbl51]

A guy showed me , a couple of weeks ago, where he was shot with a 25 acp. When the guy went to shoot him, he ducked  and moved right . Bullet hit him  upper edge of left shoulder top of his arm.  Bullet went in and skidded under the skin down to the middle of his back. Pain, yep, dead, no...Lucky he saw what was coming. Still here to do show and tell...

Bet it made him stop doing whatever he was doing that got him shot!

[boone123]

I didn't ask him if he got a different job.

[cbl51]

I didn't ask him if he got a different job.

I've go this friend Phill. Like me, Phil in his misspent and misguided youth did some dumb things. In one of his young and dumb incidents, an old man pulled a .25 auto on him. To this day, a lifetime later, Phil says that black hole looking right at him seems like a .45!

Phil instantly stopped what he was doing, slowly, VERY slowly raised his hands and started to back away. He told the old man that he didn't mean any offense, and that he's leaving right now. He backed away then ran like hell. He says it scared the hell out of him, thinking he was getting shot any moment.

[RogueTS1]

Just think where that .25 acp bullet would have ended up with that kind of penetration had he not ducked and moved right. If it had struck him in the chest or side he would likely not be showing you his wound channel.

[cbl51]

Just think where that .25 acp bullet would have ended up with that kind of penetration had he not ducked and moved right. If it had struck him in the chest or side he would likely not be showing you his wound channel.

When people talk about the "puny .25acp," I will always remember AL, the big karate guy, who got one round right in the chest from a Raven, and dropped face down and died on the spot. That little bullet did just what John Browning designed it to do!

[Dirty Bob]

I teach college classes in a sketchy area at night. I can't afford to be "made," even though I'm legal. I carry a Black Widow as the always gun, in front left pocket. Depending on clothing and other factors my other gun is usually a .380 ACP Glock 42, with a spare mag in a pocket. I don't feel undergunned.

I have seen minis in a gun store: in W. Austin in the "Bee Cave" area. I also know others who carry them.

I'm with Christian Slater in "Kuffs": "I want a really big gun that holds a lot of bullets." The truth, however, is that such a gun is hard to conceal in front of a class.

Re: the .25 ACP: During my Navy days, I carried a Jennings J-22 in right front pocket. I practiced the one-hand draw and rack...wrapping a finger over the end of the slide to draw it back. I remember wishing I owned the better Raven in .25 ACP, but the .22 was what I could afford.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

[top dog]

DB,
Nothing at all wrong with your choice of the BW or Model 42.

The fact is that you do carry and you probably practice frequently.

I always have my PUG with me and a BW in my coat pocket.

Good choices.

                                                                               Top Dog

[cbl51]

I teach college classes in a sketchy area at night. I can't afford to be "made," even though I'm legal. I carry a Black Widow as the always gun, in front left pocket. Depending on clothing and other factors my other gun is usually a .380 ACP Glock 42, with a spare mag in a pocket. I don't feel undergunned.

I have seen minis in a gun store: in W. Austin in the "Bee Cave" area. I also know others who carry them.

I'm with Christian Slater in "Kuffs": "I want a really big gun that holds a lot of bullets." The truth, however, is that such a gun is hard to conceal in front of a class.

Re: the .25 ACP: During my Navy days, I carried a Jennings J-22 in right front pocket. I practiced the one-hand draw and rack...wrapping a finger over the end of the slide to draw it back. I remember wishing I owned the better Raven in .25 ACP, but the .22 was what I could afford.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

It sounds like you're doing everything right. The only thing wrong with a big gun and lots of bullets is, it'susally too darn big to carry around concealed. For a non LEO, just some civilian going about his life, a small gun that you are very familiar with and practice now and then, is a good thing.

To quote the Armed Citizen 5 year study;  "The defenders had some measure of familiarity with their firearms. Although perhaps not trained in the formal sense, they appear to be able to access a firearm and immediately put it into action. At least one defender learned from a previous experience and made the firearm more accessible for subsequent use."

First rule of self defense is to have a weapon. Second rule is to be as familiar with the weapon as possible. Handle it a lot. Practice drawing it, practice shooting it like you will use it. Fondle it till your hand knows it's feel in the dark. Develop stealth counter attack they will not see coming.

Mini's and little .25's are good for that.

[top dog]

cbl51,
Again,right on the money especially when it comes to being totally familiar with the piece.

Sounds along the lines of the late Col.Jeff Cooper.

The late Bill Jordan,in his book    No Second Place Winner   goes into a little detail about the value of a Chiefs Special lightweight in 22 mag. The book was published long before the  mini came on scene but now would go doubly so for the mini in 22 mag.

                                                                                                       Top Dog

[WECSOG]

I have very often wondered even in the 'old days' how many people actually were walking around with a Colt single action army on their hip. I know watching the old cowboy movie and TV shows like Gunsmoke gives the impression everyone had a Colt. But that was an expensive piece of hardware in it's day, something like a months wages for a cowhand.

I wonder how many Remington and Sharps derringers and small revolvers like the S&W model 1 were sold and carried by shop keepers, bar tenders, and townspeople?  Certainly they were the majority in their day, with he cowboys actually being the minority. Certainly there was more townspeople than cowpokes of fiction riding the range, in spite of what was portrayed in John Wayne movies?

Frontier towns — places like Tombstone, Deadwood, and Dodge — actually had the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation.

In fact, many of those same cities have far less burdensome gun control today then they did back in the 1800s.

Guns were obviously widespread on the frontier. Out in the untamed wilderness, you needed a gun to be safe from bandits, natives, and wildlife. In the cities and towns of the West, however, the law often prohibited people from toting their guns around. A visitor arriving in Wichita, Kansas in 1873, the heart of the Wild West era, would have seen signs declaring, "Leave Your Revolvers At Police Headquarters, and Get a Check."

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-winkler/did-the-wild-west-have-mo_b_956035.html

[WECSOG]

I wish the Ruger LCP was made in .25acp.

I've often wished we could get a small frame revolver in .25 acp. Something like a Black Widow, or perhaps like a Ruger Bearcat. .25 acp is semi-rimmed (as is .32 acp), so it can headspace on the rim.

[top dog]

Wes,
Sounds like the 25acp would be a nice cartridge in the BearCat,especially in the Shop Keeper configuration.

The trouble is that if it were to be in the BW,it would have to a bigger frame,and if you did that,might as well go with a J frame snubby.

I hate to admit it,but the 25 acp seems to be much better suited for the small autos.

The Walther TPH comes in 22 lr and 25 acp. Although I have seen several in 22lr,I have never seen one in 25 acp. Maybe they are popular in Europe in that caliber.

                                                                                  Top Dog

[cbl51]

Yes, the .25 was designed form the ground up to counter the one big bug the .22 rimfirehad; the sometimes dud priming.

I read where John Browning was trying to duplicate the ballistics of the .22lr but with positive ignition soit can reused in a small semi auto. With a dud in a revolver, you just pull the trigger again. Thats a nano second if you train for it. But a small auto you need two hands and a second or two to pull it off. Not possible with someone on top of you or closing fast.

A.25 in a revolver is kind of like an unnecessary thing. I think a CCI mini mag out of a 4 inch barrel bearcat would compete with a .25acp out of a short barrel like a baby Browning.

I'd LOVE to see the Baby Browning back in the U.S.!!!!!!

[heyjoe]

Yes, the .25 was designed form the ground up to counter the one big bug the .22 rimfirehad; the sometimes dud priming.

I read where John Browning was trying to duplicate the ballistics of the .22lr but with positive ignition soit can reused in a small semi auto. With a dud in a revolver, you just pull the trigger again. Thats a nano second if you train for it. But a small auto you need two hands and a second or two to pull it off. Not possible with someone on top of you or closing fast.

A.25 in a revolver is kind of like an unnecessary thing. I think a CCI mini mag out of a 4 inch barrel bearcat would compete with a .25acp out of a short barrel like a baby Browning.

I'd LOVE to see the Baby Browning back in the U.S.!!!!!!

Baby Brownings are made here by PSA Precision Small Arms but they are quite expensive.

[RogueTS1]

Wes,
Sounds like the 25acp would be a nice cartridge in the BearCat,especially in the Shop Keeper configuration.

The trouble is that if it were to be in the BW,it would have to a bigger frame,and if you did that,might as well go with a J frame snubby.

I hate to admit it,but the 25 acp seems to be much better suited for the small autos.

The Walther TPH comes in 22 lr and 25 acp. Although I have seen several in 22lr,I have never seen one in 25 acp. Maybe they are popular in Europe in that caliber.

                                                                                  Top Dog

Here is one and note it is DA/SA; so no need for two hands to operate when up close and personal. Just pull the trigger like a revolver for the first shot. 

[WECSOG]

The main reason I would like something like a Bearcat in .25 acp is it would be a compact utilitarian gun like the same thing in .22 LR, with the added ability to reload with cast bullets.
Same reason I like my .32 revolvers.

[cbl51]

The main reason I would like something like a Bearcat in .25 acp is it would be a compact utilitarian gun like the same thing in .22 LR, with the added ability to reload with cast bullets.
Same reason I like my .32 revolvers.

Now THAT makes sense!

Casting your own bullets, and the small amount powder used, I imagine the .25acp can be reloaded as cheap as a .22lr at todays prices. Or almost. I'd go for a .25 bearcat! Be veeeery interesting to play with.

[RogueTS1]

But in terminal performance the 22 mag in a 2" barrel beats them hands down.

But can it be effectively suppressed is the real question?   

[WECSOG]

The main reason I would like something like a Bearcat in .25 acp is it would be a compact utilitarian gun like the same thing in .22 LR, with the added ability to reload with cast bullets.
Same reason I like my .32 revolvers.

Now THAT makes sense!

Casting your own bullets, and the small amount powder used, I imagine the .25acp can be reloaded as cheap as a .22lr at todays prices. Or almost. I'd go for a .25 bearcat! Be veeeery interesting to play with.

Cheaper, when you amortize the cost of the cases.

[redhawk4]

I still am pretty sure the 22 mag, out of a BW, outperforms a 25acp out of a mouse semi auto...Just Sayin'

And now I will back up that statement. The 25acp was designed to compare to a 22 lr out of the same barrel length handgun. Some one else already posted that, and it is correct. The issue was misrepresented here in comparing a 25 acp out of a semi auto (most with between a 2-3" barrel and said it is better than a 22lr out of a short barrel mini. Well duh, a 25 acp out of a one inch barreled semi can't be tested, because there is no such gun. So compare apple to apples  A 25acp with a 2 inch barrel in 45 grain hp travels 815 fps and would have a me of 64. A 22 lr 40 grain. out of a BW averages 865 fps and the same 64 lb of energy. this is 2018, I can buy decent ammo and duds have not been a problem.

But what I said is that the 22 Mag surpasses them both. The CCI maxi mag 40 grain out of a BW has a velocity of 1000fps, a ME  of 89, the Gold Dot short barrel out of a BW 1150+ fps and a ME of 116 ME. The 45 gr FTX (which is the same weight as the 25 acp) has a MV of 1100 and a ME of 121. And this is out of the shortest comparable barrel for the 25 autos. The only advantage there can be to the 25 acp is you might find a mini semi auto that holds more rounds. But in terminal performance the 22 mag in a 2" barrel beats them hands down.     
         
With either a 25 acp or a 22 lr you need to choose between expansion OR penetration, with a 22 mag you can have both. JMO ...Al

Remember you also have to include the cartridge length when talking about a semi auto barrel length, where as the revolver has the cylinder plus the barrel.

If you look at NAA's own ballistic tables they show a 50 grain bullet in 22 mag Federal travelling from the 1 5/8" barrel at identical speeds to what you'd get from 25 acp in a small semi auto i.e. around 750 - 800 fps. There are now some better 22 mag loads available which may do better, but I'm also sure 25 acp could be revisited if an ammo manufacturer took the time, to close the gap again.

https://northamericanarms.com/ballistics/ball-22m/


If you look at the same data for 22 LR you are looking at a 36 gr bullet at still less than the MV a 50 grain comes from 25 acp, whereas dropping to a 35 gr bullet in 25 acp gives you 900 fps, compared to 650-750 in 22 LR.

So based on NAA figures for 1 5/8" barrel guns, 25 acp is comparable to 22 mag rather than 22 LR.

[top dog]

Maybe it would be better to have the BearCat in a 25/20 caliber. You could reload for it and the ballistics would be much better.

Just a thought on that.

However,the BearCat does have a good advantage in 25 acp. 5 pounds of lead and a pound of BullsEye would go a very long way.

                                                                                                                   Top Dog

[WECSOG]

Maybe it would be better to have the BearCat in a 25/20 caliber. You could reload for it and the ballistics would be much better.

Just a thought on that.

However,the BearCat does have a good advantage in 25 acp. 5 pounds of lead and a pound of BullsEye would go a very long way.

                                                                                                                   Top Dog

I doubt .25/20 would fit in a Bearcat. And .25 acp in a Bearcat with a 3" barrel (which is what I would want) would be easily capable of 800-900 fps with a 50 grain cast bullet. That's perfect for my uses, for a little trail gun.

[cbl51]

Maybe it would be better to have the BearCat in a 25/20 caliber. You could reload for it and the ballistics would be much better.

Just a thought on that.

However,the BearCat does have a good advantage in 25 acp. 5 pounds of lead and a pound of BullsEye would go a very long way.

                                                                                                                   Top Dog

I doubt .25/20 would fit in a Bearcat. And .25 acp in a Bearcat with a 3" barrel (which is what I would want) would be easily capable of 800-900 fps with a 50 grain cast bullet. That's perfect for my uses, for a little trail gun.

I can only wonder that given the bearcat is a pretty solid built revolver with a good frame, that rounds could be loaded a little 'warmer' than for a blowback small semi with a zink frame like a Raven or FIE Titan? Add in the 4 inch barrel of the regular bearcat, and you'd have a great trail gun for small game and some defense use.

[top dog]

What about a 22 Hornet or K-Hornet?  There are two very obscure loads that also maybe used,if we are talking about reloading and those would be the Velodog and 22JRG.

Just a thought.

                                                                                    Top Dog

[top dog]

Canoeal,
I agree with you on that. The 22 mag is an awesome caliber.
As I said before,the Late Bill Jordan in his book   No Second Place Winner   goes into a little detail on the value of the 22 magnum in a hideout gun.

Can't get much more of a hide out than a NAA Mini!!!

                                                                                               Top Dog

[cbl51]

Canoeal,
I agree with you on that. The 22 mag is an awesome caliber.
As I said before,the Late Bill Jordan in his book   No Second Place Winner   goes into a little detail on the value of the 22 magnum in a hideout gun.

Can't get much more of a hide out than a NAA Mini!!!

                                                                                               Top Dog

I can only wonder, if Bill Jordan were alive today, would he carry a .22 mag black widow?