Niche markets

[Canoeal]

I was thinking more of incorporating the swing out cylinder feature into the black widow frame. maybe make it look like a full underlug revolver to keep the looms of the black widow including functional sites and a bit longer barrel with the added usability of the sidewinder loading and unloading system. maybe even improved with a bit longer ejector rod.

Where would you fit the crane in the BW frame? The crane is the ugly part...

[Rob22]

So far I can't even create any forum excitement   

[Rob22]

Looking at the sidewinder cylinder crane I think it would blend nicely with the square barrel of the back widow

[Uncle_Lee]

So far I can't even create any forum excitement   

Post some pictures.

[bearcatter]

You lost me when you compared NAA to Seecamp. Seecamp is indeed a niche maker of small auto pistols. NAA is not. If NAA stopped making mini revolvers to concentrate on their small auto pistols, IMO they would be out of business by the end of the year.

Seecamp is the only comparison to NAA, since no one else makes mini revolvers. I consider Seecamp the prototype for the Guardians, and the only gun that's similar to anything NAA makes. So the Guardian is not a "me-too". All the plastic pocket guns are "me-too".

OTOH, again in my opinion, NAA could discontinue their auto pistols and concentrate entirely on what is their niche market, mini revolvers and accessories, and it would hardly make a dent in their bottom line. In fact if they reinvested the time, R&D and manufacturing capacity that they currently fritter away on "me-too" small auto pistols and put it instead toward improving their mini revolver lineup, it would actually improve their bottom line.

"Fritter away"?  I'm glad they make the Guardian, especially the 32 (!), or I'd likely still be trying to carry a snub Ruger. A lot of LEOs and carry licencees appreciate the Guardian, too. The Seecamp is ammo picky, has a mag safety, and tries to disassemble itself in field strips. Plastic doesn't do it for me, nor does .380.

I know, I should ask NAA as to production numbers (I just did, today), but by my guess in how their serial numbers sequence, Guardian production is something past a million, probably more. That's a pretty good dent in the bottom line. So far as improving the mini line, I think they've done fine without the money that's "frittered away".

[miker]

Seecamps and Guardians and many DAO pocket pistols all really come from the CZ vz45.

miker

[bearcatter]

I don't know, maybe similar. The Vz 45 has a lug mount barrel, a side plate, a mag safety, and a stirrup shaped trigger connector instead of a flat bar. I expect most all pocket guns share features from earlier guns. The Vz 45 was a post WW2 gun, but something like the FN 1905 which was a lot like the Baby Browning of 1931.

My preference for Guardians is naturally based on current model pocket pistols.

[Dinadan]

Since there seems to be a bit of uncertainty about the relative role of revolvers versus pistols at NAA, I checked out the statistics at the ATF site. The latest they have posted are from 2016.


In 2016 NAA manufactured 63084 revolvers.


In 2016 NAA manufactured 480 pistols.

Below are images of the two relevant pages. Click to enlarge.

Note that pistols comprise less than one percent of the total handguns that NAA made. Here is a link to the web site. It is actually kind of interesting looking at the numbers of various makers.


https://www.atf.gov/about/docs/undefined/afmer2016webreport508pdf/download


Here are images of the relevant pages.

[WECSOG]

Since there seems to be a bit of uncertainty about the relative role of revolvers versus pistols at NAA, I checked out the statistics at the ATF site. The latest they have posted are from 2016.


In 2016 NAA manufactured 63084 revolvers.


In 2016 NAA manufactured 480 pistols.

Below are images of the two relevant pages. Click to enlarge.

Note that pistols comprise less than one percent of the total handguns that NAA made. Here is a link to the web site. It is actually kind of interesting looking at the numbers of various makers. Wow, this link was made tiny when I pasted it, but it still works.
https://www.atf.gov/about/docs/undefined/afmer2016webreport508pdf/download
Here are images of the relevant pages.

Thanks for that! So basically, Arms Technology Inc. made more than 100 times as many pistols in 2016 as NAA did, and I've never even heard of them. Nor do they seem to have a website.
Extar, who I have also never heard of, made more than twice as many. Ruger made nearly 700 times as many .380s alone as NAA's three auto pistol calibers combined.

Sure looks to me like NAA's revolvers are the money makers, and that is what allows them to sell the Guardian at a loss.

[cfsharry]

Darn it Dinadan, you beat me to the punch.
As I said in a post several years ago I don't understand why they continue producing such a poor seller and focus, instead, on what they do best.
Here is a photo of the gun NAA should build next. Just plain cool!

[Dinadan]

Darn it Dinadan, you beat me to the punch.
As I said in a post several years ago I don't understand why they continue producing such a poor seller and focus, instead, on what they do best.
Here is a photo of the gun NAA should build next. Just plain cool!

I have always liked the look of those external hammer revolvers! It would indeed be cool to see some new versions of those guns: something we could really shoot.

[WECSOG]

That would be sweet! If they made it about the same size as the original, they could chamber it for .32 ACP.

[Uncle_Lee]

That would be sweet! If they made it about the same size as the original, they could chamber it for .32 ACP.

Ya, 32 acp mini......

[Rob22]

Or the back widow ranger hybrid with xs big dot sights    can someone with photo shop skills make a picture?

[cbl51]

That would be sweet! If they made it about the same size as the original, they could chamber it for .32 ACP.

A .32acp or even a .25acp would be nice to have the more reliable priming of a center fire round in a very small revolver.

[bearcatter]

.32 ACP is semi-rimmed, doesn't work well in a revolver. .25 has no rim. You'd have to go for rimmed like .32 S&W. I don't think there is a rimmed .25 for revolvers. Maybe use moon clips?

[OV-1D]

  OH Harry I need that square butt piece , you had to have gotten those re-nickled if not your a wealthy fella , very sweet side-hammers .

[cfsharry]

OV,
Original finish both guns. They were beauties. Hated to sell them more than any of the spur trigger pocket pistols in my collection. Should have kept at least one. Probably the boot grip as that was the older of the two.
I believe that if NAA were to reproduce this little gun in a magnum frame but a standard length 22 LR cylinder they would have a sure fire winner.

[bearcatter]

Any idea who made them? They look like some Hopkins & Allen in a book I have.

[Canoeal]

Please guys let NAA decide the Niche markets they want to be in...

[WECSOG]

.32 ACP is semi-rimmed, doesn't work well in a revolver. .25 has no rim. You'd have to go for rimmed like .32 S&W. I don't think there is a rimmed .25 for revolvers. Maybe use moon clips?

.32 ACP headspaces on the rim just fine. So does .25 ACP, which is also semi-rimmed.
The only reason the .32 ACP doesn't work perfectly in a .32 S&W Long etc. revolver is the rim, being smaller, increases headspace. But if the headspace is set for the ACP round, there is no problem. The rim is more than sufficient.

[WECSOG]

Please guys let NAA decide the Niche markets they want to be in...

We're here to discuss NAA products. That's what we're doing. What's the problem?
NAA is free to listen to our input or not, as they wish. And you are free to join in the discussion, or ignore it if you don't like the direction it's taking.

[Don73]

cfsharry, Love the looks of the guns you posted pictures of. Maybe someone at NAA will notice. I know when I've called for something at NAA, they always say they are looking for customer feedback on their products and recommendations.

[cbl51]

.32 ACP is semi-rimmed, doesn't work well in a revolver. .25 has no rim. You'd have to go for rimmed like .32 S&W. I don't think there is a rimmed .25 for revolvers. Maybe use moon clips?

.32 ACP headspaces on the rim just fine. So does .25 ACP, which is also semi-rimmed.
The only reason the .32 ACP doesn't work perfectly in a .32 S&W Long etc. revolver is the rim, being smaller, increases headspace. But if the headspace is set for the ACP round, there is no problem. The rim is more than sufficient.

That's what I was always led to believe. It shouldn't be any harder to make a .25acp revolver than a 9mm revolver.

[WECSOG]

.32 ACP is semi-rimmed, doesn't work well in a revolver. .25 has no rim. You'd have to go for rimmed like .32 S&W. I don't think there is a rimmed .25 for revolvers. Maybe use moon clips?

.32 ACP headspaces on the rim just fine. So does .25 ACP, which is also semi-rimmed.
The only reason the .32 ACP doesn't work perfectly in a .32 S&W Long etc. revolver is the rim, being smaller, increases headspace. But if the headspace is set for the ACP round, there is no problem. The rim is more than sufficient.

That's what I was always led to believe. It shouldn't be any harder to make a .25acp revolver than a 9mm revolver.

Easier in fact, since 9mm is a true rimless and must either headspace on the case mouth (as in auto pistols) or via a moon clip.
There's a guy on some of the forums who has built a .25 ACP Ruger Single Six. He uses the rim for headspacing.

[SteveZ-FL]

.32 ACP is semi-rimmed, doesn't work well in a revolver. .25 has no rim. You'd have to go for rimmed like .32 S&W. I don't think there is a rimmed .25 for revolvers. Maybe use moon clips?

.32 ACP headspaces on the rim just fine. So does .25 ACP, which is also semi-rimmed.
The only reason the .32 ACP doesn't work perfectly in a .32 S&W Long etc. revolver is the rim, being smaller, increases headspace. But if the headspace is set for the ACP round, there is no problem. The rim is more than sufficient.

Never thought about a .32 revolver until I got an H&R .32S&W from a friend who wanted to dispose of it.   Have gotten to be a fan of .32S&W after having put a 100 or so rounds through it.

Would love to have a .32 revolver somewhere near the size of a NAA .22WMR 1 5/8.  .32S&W would be an interesting caliber for such a revolver.  FMJ, LRN and Wadcutters in this caliber are available at several vendors and the price is not bad.  Some folk claim (haven't done it myself) that .32ACP can be fired in a .32S&W revolver, but some ACP loads (especially ÷P) and expanding/fragmenting bullets may not be either safe or practical in that small of a revolver. 

[Canoeal]

.32 ACP is semi-rimmed, doesn't work well in a revolver. .25 has no rim. You'd have to go for rimmed like .32 S&W. I don't think there is a rimmed .25 for revolvers. Maybe use moon clips?

.32 ACP headspaces on the rim just fine. So does .25 ACP, which is also semi-rimmed.
The only reason the .32 ACP doesn't work perfectly in a .32 S&W Long etc. revolver is the rim, being smaller, increases headspace. But if the headspace is set for the ACP round, there is no problem. The rim is more than sufficient.

That's what I was always led to believe. It shouldn't be any harder to make a .25acp revolver than a 9mm revolver.

The only advantage to a 25 acp is the centerfire cartridge. I am not sure that is enough of an advantage (if any) to go and design a whole new gun, test it, sell it, fix it, redesign it... for avery limited market.

[SteveZ-FL]

The only advantage to a 25 acp is the centerfire cartridge. I am not sure that is enough of an advantage (if any) to go and design a whole new gun, test it, sell it, fix it, redesign it...

Agree.  There is no appreciable ballistic difference between .22 and .25, so there would be no real ballistic gain,   A centerfire revolver would be quite a design difference compared to the current NAA mini design and the cost effort may not be profitable.

A few years ago did some very unscientific comparative test firing between my NAA.22LR with Stingers and Baby Browning .25ACP with FMJ, both into phone books at about 15 feet.  Did not find enough of a difference (penetration or damage) to rate one over the other.. 

I'm not a fan of rimfire semi-auto handguns (have a Taurus PT-22).  The ACP cartidges were designed for semi-autos and trying to design a revolver around one is (to me, anyway) like designing a car around a particular tire.

[Rob22]

sounds like we are back to the black widow ranger or sidewinder hybrid with xs big dot sights

[Uncle_Lee]

I would like a pair of minis in .32 acp.
Why?
Cause !!!

[SteveZ-FL]

I would like a pair of minis in .32 acp.
Why?
Cause !!!

That's as good a reason as any other!

[Canoeal]

Same problems and issues as a .25 revolver...for three of you.

[glenn]

Four
I also want a small .32 ACP wheelgun.

.

[Canoeal]

It would never be made in the size of a mini...I had a .32 SW and the gun was smaller, but not mini sized, and the cylinder seemed to need some of that size...Was an H&R

[Canoeal]

Four
I also want a small .32 ACP wheelgun.

.

When you get to 500 or so let me know. You would need to sell at least that many for a profit, to make it worth doing... Why do you think the runs of NAA special guns are that big? Only way they are profitable.  I bet 1000 over a multiple year sales projection  might be enough to think about. When NAA makes these dealer exclusive versions, I bet the dealer needs to contract for a certain number up front, like 1000 or 1500.
Any of you want to be on the hook for the first 1000 32acps?