Todays teachers .

[OV-1D]

  Just received an e-mail telling of a guest speaker at a school . It was Theodore (Dutch) J. Van Kirk , the navigator of the Enola Gay . He was introduced as the one of the crew that dropped the atomic bomb on Japan during "World War Eleven" (WW II) . He (Dutch) just got up and walked out . Isn't America just turning out just grand ? GOD help us and the future of our Great Nation .

[billmeek]

Theodore "Dutch" Van Kirk passed away July 28, 2014 at the age of 93.  Although there is internet rumor about his walking out because of a school teacher saying "World War Eleven", it is not (reliably) documented anywhere. 

[OV-1D]

  I think this is the teachers truck .

[top dog]

Nice truck,nice Quad but I don't think that it will get too far.....................

                                                           Top Dog

[bearcatter]

Part of the problem with all the small wars today, is that schools gloss over the World Wars, and hardly anyone is alive that experienced the big ones. The school kids here think one cruise missile is "cool". The jihads think they are hot stuff setting off an IED. Both have no idea what we could unleash if we chose to.

Maybe we could get their attention by having a WW 2 size (small today) atomic blast somewhere in their desert? Tell them they're next, and we have lots of bigger ones?  Just a single B-52 unloading conventional bombs is impressive. I'm still in awe of the thousand plane raids on Germany and Japan.

[cfsharry]

Thank you Bill.

[Canoeal]

Maybe the picture of Nagasaki would help...

[bearcatter]

I looked it up; the blast leveled an area two miles across. It instantly killed 30-40 thousand, and 30 thousand more over time from radiation and injuries. Hiroshima was hit with a smaller bomb, but nearly twice as many died because it had a flatter terrain. Nagasaki was an alternate target, because the B-29 had a fuel problem and bad weather had formed over the city of Kokura.

Replica of Nagasaki's "Fat Boy" bomb. One flash and done:



Nagasaki, before and after:



Here's a site with technical specs of both bombs, and Air Force footage of preparation of both for delivery. No in flight footage of Hiroshima, but Nagasaki starts at 12:30 and shows the mushroom cloud.

https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/little-boy-and-fat-man

[OV-1D]

  Just goes to show us what democrats are willing to do to win . Must be a genetic thing . A Republican would have bought a means to stop the war that was being won and winding down . 

[bearcatter]

I dunno. Without the bombs, we would have had to invade Japan. Street fighting would have killed thousands more GIs.

[Honky Tonk Man]

My Dad entered the war in the Battle of the Bulge and went all the way to Berlin with the 30th INF DIV.  His unit was preparing to go to the Pacific when the atomic bombs were dropped on Japan.  That decision to drop those bombs is widely accepted to have saved many more lives, both American and Japanese, than if we had to invade the Japanese homeland.  Who knows, I might not have ever been around if it didn't happen.  Revisionist history will not convince me otherwise. 

[OV-1D]

  We had total control of the air over Japan and conventional bombing would have come out with the same results . The introduction of the atomic bomb was a big mistake that's followed us into today . If nothing else greed and corruption allowed this terrible discovery to flood the earth with NO restrictions . Truman was an idiot and a madman being manipulated by emotion and stupidity instead of sense as far as I'm concerned . Just my opinion mind ya .

[Honky Tonk Man]

Yes, we'll have to disagree on this one OV-1D.  Conventional bombing is fine for softening up the enemy, but until the hell of nukes; you had to win that war on the ground.  The Japanese demonstrated their willingness to fight to the last man on every island they held.  The mainland would have been far more costly.  Men, women and children were prepared to fight to the death to defend their homeland.  They didn't have the mindset to give up after a conventional bombing campaign.

We needed something horrific to wake up Hirohito. It was a bold, dramatic move, but necessary to show them we had the capability to completely annihilate them.  Even then, it took a second one to convince them we meant business.   Remember who started the war.  Also read up on the Japanese atrocities they brought to their conquests in their desire for world domination.  I never voted for a Democrat in my life, but I admire Truman for his courageous act.  Even the Japanese later admitted many of their lives were spared because of it.  Sorry, no tears here for the Japanese.  War is hell.  Always was, always will be. 

[OV-1D]

  Honky Tonk it isn't the Japanese I was concerned with its the introduction of nuclear warfare to which there will be NO FREAKING WINNERS . It's only going to take one or more psychopaths to start a very unforgivable end to civilization as we know it . Just a half dozen or so will poison the atmosphere for a very long time . We have no gag-stops to prevent the after affects of radiation poisoning for the masses and or food sources . Its a very real danger that no-one will talk about just finger crossing won't help . Sure we can patrol these rogue nations but as they launch our patrols will be looking up scratching their heads in wonder . DON'T WORRY BE HAPPY as the song goes we'll just wonder why its getting so hot within seconds then HUH ! , Ha ,ha . HOLD YOUR MINI'S HIGH IN DEFIANCE .

[Warthog]

I was born during the Cuban Missile Crisis.  I asked my Mom, before she passed away, what she and my Dad were thinking about as they brought a new baby into the troubled world where Nuclear War was very close?  She told me they were pretty poor then, all they thought about was keeping me warm and fed, they lived in a small enclosed balcony in York PA and it was cold out then.  It made me ask her what I was that they wouldn't worry about the possibility of a war, she told me I was brand new and all they wanted was to keep me safe, warm and fed.

I suppose I might have been that way too, though I have never married nor had children.  I would be more worried about the new baby than a war.  Now at 56, I would say that a War no longer worries me either.  I did the duck and cover and all the silly things they made is do in school in case of an Atomic War.  Back then it made me worry but I figured things out and now I am no longer worried.

Yeah, not the right forum...

I know now that God keeps the world going until He decides to send Jesus Back to Rule with an Iron rod for the Millennial Kingdom.  Until then, no one can do anything bad as God is in control.  When Jesus returns, the dead and those still living will be called and met in the air and we will go to the Marriage Ball as the bride of Christ. That will be a VERY GOOD day!

[Honky Tonk Man]

We agree on this OV.  Nuclear proliferation has spiraled out of control.  No doubt about that.  We were first out of the gate, but the writing was on the wall.  Germany and Russia were both working on their own nuclear weapons.  If not us; then it would have been them.  At least our intentions weren't world domination. 

I worry most about N Korea and Iraq.  Their hatred for the West, and especially the USA, should worry us all.  I'm buying into Trumps deal making with N Korea less with each passing day and no visible progress.  I've always been suspicious of N Koreas stall tactics.  Trump is no fool, and I'm sure he realizes this.  I've sold him short before though, and he always seems to come out on top.  We shall see... 

[Honky Tonk Man]

Well said Warty.  All we can do is live our lives to the fullest extent.  Be true to ourselves, take care of our fellow man, and most importantly, honor God.  Let the chips fall where they may. 

[Warthog]

N Korea and Iraq are godless people, one is a commie fascist place and the other is Muslim, they worship a rock in Mecca.  Idolators.  They walk around a bid square building and hope to be able to touch a black rock that fell to earth, a meteorite.   Sure they say it is Allah, who BTW is a Moon god whose name Muhammad adopted for his own use.  Muhammad was a pedophile, and he also was a man who, once he found people stopped following him, suddenly got a new revelation calling for WAR/Jihad.

What a joke...One day before too much longer these folks will try to wipe Israel off the map, them and all of their Muslim buddies plus probably Russia according the the prophets.  That day God will protect His people and the world will wonder how it could be, soon after Jesus will call His Church home.  Looking forward to that day I can tell you.

[LHB]

Now in another thread, we have been worrying about the over population of the earth, when we have a good way to reduce the population by 95% in hours.

In some of the history I have read, if, after WWII ended with the invasion of the southern island of Japan in December of 45, and then the central islands in 46-47, with over half a million U.S. dead on the first two islands, and then it came out that we had the bomb, and didn't use it, Truman would have been impeached.   There was a reason the government bought half a million body bags in 1945.   When you look at the casualties on Okinawa, especially among the civilians, there have been some estimates that 75=80% of the Japanese population would have died in the invasion of Japan.

The fire bombing of Tokyo killed more people than Hiroshima, and they were not ready to quit, because they were each expected to kill one American with their spear, before being killed.   NO WAR HAS EVER BEEN WON BY CONVENTIONAL AIREAL BOMBING, it takes BOOTS ON THE GROUND to win a war.

Remember a college history class in 64 when this discussion came up, the instructor sat there and listened to both side for a while, then said, "Everyone whose father served in WWII stand up" with about 80% standing.   Then he said "Those who fathers served in Europe, and were discharged by V-E day, sit down," and a handful did, and then he said, "If Truman had not used the bomb, none of you people still standing would be here today, because your father would have died in Japan."   That was the end of the discussion.

[Uncle_Lee]

Dad was in one of the first waves to hit Okinawa. He lost a lot of friends there and when they finally claimed victory, they were staging to hit mainland Japan.
They were preparing to fight millions most of which would be armed with anything they use to kill with.
My family (and I for sure) are very happy that Ol Harry dropped the bomb. The first waves would never have made it on to the island. Dad would have died.
Japan made first strike, we made last.
War over.

[top dog]

About a month before the first A Bomb was dropped,my father's photoengraving shop was contracted to print thousands of leaflets in Japanese with warning that a very destructive weapon will be deployed if peace/surrender will not take place.

These were dropped on the targeted cites in Japan a couple of weeks before the first bomb was deployed.

Decades later I spoke with the navigator of the Enola Gay and he had told me that he was on the flights that dropped those leaflets.

A couple of years later,the bombardier of the Enola Gay lived (briefly) in the town that I was a Police Sgt in.

It is a small world.

                                                                                             Top Dog

[PaducahMichael]

If a nuclear weapon had never been deployed, it would not be as feared as it is today. Its deterrence factor would be much lower since it would have held only theoretical effectiveness.

It HAD to be used at least once to demonstrate its truly terrible destructive power, not just in the immediate blast but also in its long-term effects. It HAD to be used so that no one would ever want to use it again.

That's my theory.

[Honky Tonk Man]

Michael,
It was estimated a quarter million American lives would have been lost in an invasion of the Japanese homeland.  This after many months of a total naval blockade of the islands, and hundreds of thousands of tons of conventional bombs were dropped on Japan.  Most of those were deadly fire bombs.  In one night of those raids; 100,000 Japanese  civilians were burned to death in Tokyo.  Still not a hint of a sign the Japanese would give up.

After repeated warnings, Truman made the decision and warned the Japanese who were given the choice to surrender or face total annihilation.  This was met with silent contempt by Japan.  Even after the first bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, silence from the Japanese.  More warnings met by silence, and Nagasaki reduced to rubble.  The U.S. only had those 2 bombs.  It would take months to produce more, so American battleships and carriers started cruising up and down the coast of Japan destroying anything they wanted to.  Japan finally capitulated. 

The U.S. casualties in the Pacific were about 100,000 troops.  Japanese lost over 2 million.  In just one battle for Iwo Jima, we lost more lives than we did on the D-Day invasion.  This was a little Island 5 miles long and defended by 20,000+ Japanese Soldiers.  When the dust settled, there were only a couple hundred that lived to surrender.  It demonstrated the determination and resolve we faced if we had to invade Japan itself. 

My biggest fear is that these facts will be glossed over by revisionists.  It certainly doesn't fit the narrative of the left who sadly have a stranglehold in our schools and universities.  Evil America picking on poor little Japan.  Unbelievable. 

I noticed in my earlier posts, something in the forum changes the word spelled "h-e- double hockey sticks"
to  "heck".   Anyone know if the change is made by an administer, or maybe the forum software?  I didn't realize that word was a no-no. 

[Uncle_Lee]

Automatic software won't let you say dang or heck.   It changed them as soon as I clicked on "post".

Top Dog, I saw those surrender leaflets in the Douglas Mac Arthur museum in Norfolk, VA.
The story of the leaflets are there in a display.

[76r]

I'm not new, I've just rejoined after a hiatus.

Warty, I so strongly agree about your assessment of islam!!!  I have read the koran and it is clear they have a mandate to kill infidels, PERIOD.  Nowhere in that horrible document is there room for moderation.

[top dog]

Uncle Lee,

I used the term "contracted" loosely.  The Secret Service came in and sealed the shop until all the leaflets were printed. Being that they were Japanese,no one in the shop knew what they were printing.
After the printing was completed,the plates and ALL the leaflets were taken away.

Now,as the "historian revisionists " are trying to rewrite history,reminds me of when the death camps were discovered in Europe. Gen.Eisenhower said to document and film everything because sometime in the future people will try to say that this never happened.

History has proven him correct.

                                                                           Top Dog

[Boisesteve]

This is a great discussion.  Especially well said above, Warty and HTM.
FWIW, I met Maj Charles Sweeney back in Maine and bought a signed copy of his autobiography "Wars End".  I got to shake his hand and thank him.  If y'all can find a copy of his book in a library, I recommend it, and if you can't his Wikipedia entry is a pretty good one-page overview.
And if you ever get to West Point NY, check out the Museum of Arms there.  They've got a Fat Man bomb in the museum that I seem to remember was a practice bomb used in training for the real thing. Makes your hair stand up to see it.
Steve in Boise

[Honky Tonk Man]

Thanks Steve.  It took me a while to find it, but I have a picture of the B-29 Bock's Car signed by the CoPilot of the Nagasaki mission, LTC Fred Olivi from Chicago.  I met him years ago at a gun show when I lived there.  He was shaking hands and answering questions.  I struck up a conversation with him, and found him fascinating.  When I mentioned I was in Army Aviation, that was a big mistake.  All he wanted to talk about was helicopters.  He expressed no remorse for the mission.  The day after they returned to base, they heard Japan sued for peace.  His estimates were one million American, and 250,000 British lives saved.  He also told me about a city called Kokura which was the primary target.  It was socked in (cloud cover) and couldn't be found, so they hit Nagasaki, the alternate target.  He also told me no one wanted that to be the final A-bomb mission in history more than the crew members who did their duty that day. 

The picture hung in my office for years and you have to hold it just right to the light to read it.  He used a felt tip marker.  Old Soldiers don't die, they just fade away...  R.I.P. Sir. 

[red14]

Well said Warty.  All we can do is live our lives to the fullest extent.  Be true to ourselves, take care of our fellow man, and most importantly, honor God.  Let the chips fall where they may.

Good words to live by.   I see a few old-timers are still on here, groovy and farm-out.

[Boisesteve]

right arm, man! 

[bearcatter]

Good boogamooga......

[Ruger]

Good boogamooga......

Ah, , , yeah . . .

[Warthog]

Great Googly Moogly,  - Frank Zappa, Thing Fish Album.

[PaducahMichael]

Up-Tight and Outta Sight, Boise Steve!

[seaotter]

We didn't really need to invade Japan. The navy, specifically the submarine force, had a very tight circle around  Japan that almost nothing  could get through. Not to mention that the Japanese merchant fleet had pretty much ceased to exist by 1945. As Japan could not feed itself at that time, sooner or later Japan would have either surrendered or starved. As the military did not want to surrender, they would probably have starved. It is ironic, but it is possible that the atomic bombs may have ensured that millions of Japanese civilians survived the war. But I agree: it would have been better if the bomb had never been used, although I have no doubt that sooner or later someone someplace would have built one. MAD is an dangerous way of maintaining peace, tho!