Smooth boring a .22 LR mini

[stantheman86]

I am about to get a PUG to use as my deep concealment EDC pocket gun, and would like to make my .22 LR Mini into a gun to carry while I'm jogging for snake defense or maybe the off chance of an aggressive raccoon or some such.

Where I jog I have seen snakes and would like to have something to use if I have to.

Would having a good gunsmith smooth bore the barrel give any tighter patterns to the shot, or would it even matter? Is it even legal to do so? I know the Taurus Judge has to have shallow rifling  so that it can get around the short barreled shotgun law....

[Teddydogno1]

Definitely NOT legal in the US to have a smooth-bore handgun (except with a LOT of hoop-jumping).  Yes, rifling will wreck shot patterns.  But there's not all that much shot in a .22 LR shell anyway.

When I was younger, I shot a .22 shotshell (CCI) out of a rifle on my patio.  At a range of about 5 feet, I shot an empty cardboard soda carton (12-pack).  Only about HALF of the shot penetrated the box fully.  When I picked up the box, many of the tiny pellets were rattling around inside the box!  Not much penetration.

Rob

[grayelky]

First, yes, it is illegal to have a smooth barrel shorter than 18 inches, unless it is properly registered.

I personally do not think it would make a noticeable difference, especially if you are dealing with distances of 6-8 feet. My suggestion would be to get some cardboard or large sheets of paper and shoot them at various distances and examine the pattern your gun throws. You may be a little surprised. If you keep a short barreled shotgun near your bed try the same thing with it.

[G50AE]

I thought we already had an active thread about firing shot loads through a mini.  I also seem to recall an award winning post by Maccab in that thread. 

[TwoGunJayne]

I am about to get a PUG to use as my deep concealment EDC pocket gun, and would like to make my .22 LR Mini into a gun to carry while I'm jogging for snake defense or maybe the off chance of an aggressive raccoon or some such.

Where I jog I have seen snakes and would like to have something to use if I have to.

Would having a good gunsmith smooth bore the barrel give any tighter patterns to the shot, or would it even matter? Is it even legal to do so? I know the Taurus Judge has to have shallow rifling  so that it can get around the short barreled shotgun law....

ATF says pistols must be rifled. To go against that is either illegal or requires "connections."

Anyway... With the weight, energy, and barrel length involved, I think it wouldn't improve much anyway. The next step up from a .22 mag shot shell is a .410 from a Bond, Taurus, Heizer, and others. There's the "cheap junk," but I'm not an advocate of that.

An 11" barrel isn't a "jogging gun," but #6 3" .410 is a snake nightmare at this level. You can get a single barrel .410 "pistol" or ultralight "snake chamer" for under $125. When the shot from the mini isn't enough, it's time to step up to the proper tools.

A question, though: What specifically is the shot from the mini "not doing" for you and at what distance?

[Maccab]

The Liberator pistol is a smooth bore .45Acp.

http://www.guns.com/2012/07/28/vintage-ordnance-llc-fp-45-liberator-pistol-replica-video/

You can get them apparently.

[TwoGunJayne]

The Liberator pistol is a smooth bore .45Acp.

http://www.guns.com/2012/07/28/vintage-ordnance-llc-fp-45-liberator-pistol-replica-video/

You can get them apparently.

The "Liberator" replica is sold as non-firing and you need a drill to make it so. It's truly ridiculously priced for a replica of something that was meant to be so cheaply mass produced.

EDIT: Apparently, they began to offer a "firing version." Note that they have to use a rifled barrel. This is not a smooth bore pistol.

Remember that the original wasn't exactly safe to start with, much less 10 rounds later.

It's kind of like the WW2 Liberator was the forerunner to those 3d printed gun projects, one even with the same name.

[Maccab]

Does a .410 Bond arms pistol has to have rifled barrel to be called a pistol or is it a sbs, does it escape by being barrel'less in effect due to the cartridge length?

[TwoGunJayne]

Does a .410 Bond arms pistol has to have rifled barrel to be called a pistol or is it a sbs, does it escape by being barrel'less in effect due to the cartridge length?

Bond .410 is rifled, so is the Heizer, Taurus, and Leinad stuff.

The only legal way in the US to have a smooth bore pistol aside from the "short barrel shotgun" tax stamp and hassle (not legal in all states) is a black powder replica. A lot of parlor guns were cap fired and often unrifled (for example.) The Pedersoli Howdah Hunter double "pistol" is offered in a 20 gauge black powder configuration as well as .58 rifled.

[ljutic]

Funny this came up when it did.  I had a similar idea, but with a different tag along pistol.  It will "git er done" at 10 feet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh8o8EQECiY

[G50AE]

Remember that the original wasn't exactly safe to start with, much less 10 rounds later.

Yeah, ain't that the truth.

[stantheman86]

I have fired shot shells from my .22 LR mini and the patterns spread drastically past point blank range. I only ask because there is a gunsmith near me with a full machine shop, but if it isn't legal it's not even worth pursuing.

I have seen copperheads while jogging, rarely but I've seen them. I used to wrap the LR mini in a thin cloth and carry it in the pocket of my running shorts but I don't run very often any more so when I do, I don't carry anything.

In the other thread I warn against using any kind of .22 shot shell for defense against human threats.....at 5 yards some of the pellets wouldn't even punch through paper. They are loaded to mouse fart levels. Take the powder charge of a Stinger, maybe add a slightly bigger shot payload or 3 or 4 larger shot pellets and then you might have something.....

It is ridiculous.....if I shoot a revolver or pistol so much that I wear the rifling smooth am I now violating the law??

[grayelky]

stantheman86-

You don't mention what type of shot cartridges you are using. If it is the older crimped style, I find they are almost worthless. I say "almost" because I suspect someone, somewhere has found a use for them. The more modern plastic encapsulated type shotshells are very effective on snakes and mice at 6-9 feet from a mini.

It is unlikely anyone will be able to shoot a modern pistol enough to wear the bore completely smooth. Far from when it does get to be completely smooth, you would find it impossible to hit anything you shot at due to the bullet not having any spin. I have dealt with ATF enough to know they would maintain you should have replaced the barrel or destroyed the handgun. The problem is not theirs. The law says a smooth bore weapon is a shotgun (curios and relics not withstanding), and you can't have a shotgun with a barrel less than 18" without having it properly registered.

[TwoGunJayne]

stantheman86-

You don't mention what type of shot cartridges you are using. If it is the older crimped style, I find they are almost worthless. I say "almost" because I suspect someone, somewhere has found a use for them. The more modern plastic encapsulated type shotshells are very effective on snakes and mice at 6-9 feet from a mini.

It is unlikely anyone will be able to shoot a modern pistol enough to wear the bore completely smooth. Far from when it does get to be completely smooth, you would find it impossible to hit anything you shot at due to the bullet not having any spin. I have dealt with ATF enough to know they would maintain you should have replaced the barrel or destroyed the handgun. The problem is not theirs. The law says a smooth bore weapon is a shotgun (curios and relics not withstanding), and you can't have a shotgun with a barrel less than 18" without having it properly registered.

A common misunderstanding is barrel wear. When you have something loaded on the level of .22 short from a mid-length barrel, a .22 PCP "magnum" air gun, or a .22 mini, barrel erosion can never be a problem within your reasonable lifetime. Unless you're actually unloading pallets and pallets of shells through a piece like this, such barrel diameters and pressure levels just don't contribute to erosion of the barrel, rifling, revolver top strap, etc.

Heckler and Koch (yeah, the gun people) made a proof of concept rifle. It was a magazine fed fully automatic .308/7.62 rifle with a ridiculously short barrel. They proceeded to burn an absurd number of rounds through the device, resulting in zero barrel wear. Barrel wear, apparently, does not include lower pressure and extremely short barrel weapons.

You can look up on the internet the real "barrel eater" chamberings, but it isn't .22 rimfire. If you mechanically swapped a .22 air gun barrel to different power plants when they played out, I doubt you could ever wear the rifling out of such a barrel.

It has to do with metals hardness.  It has to do with pressure levels. When you have a soft metal coursing down a hard metal bore with chemical action unlikely to affect the metal, what do you have? Isn't it strange we're talking about barrels that change more with lead fouling than with projectile nature?

[louiethelump]

The older crimped shot .22 rounds are good for bumble bee air shooting with a 22 rifle.



Just sayin.........................  ;-)

[TwoGunJayne]

I have dealt with ATF enough to know they would maintain you should have replaced the barrel or destroyed the handgun.

I read about a poor guy who took his new rifle to the range. There was something wrong with it and it started burst firing. There happened to be an ATF agent there and the poor guy caught the hammer for it. He'd just bought the *** thing and it was NOT his fault. This was his first time trying it out.

ATF didn't care. Federal charges, no guns ever again.

Moral of the story: Test a new semiauto... alone with full personal protective gear (just in case.) THEN go to the range.

[I]

I've read about really old smooth bore .22 rifles intended for shot.

Hey, look what Remington has!

http://www.remington.com/en/pages/news-and-resources/press-releases/2007/firearms/new-smoothbore-version-of-model-572.aspx

New production .22 shotshell smoothie rifle! Remington 572 smooth bore!

[Dinadan]

stantheman86-You don't mention what type of shot cartridges you are using. If it is the older crimped style, I find they are almost worthless. I say "almost" because I suspect someone, somewhere has found a use for them. The more modern plastic encapsulated type shotshells are very effective on snakes and mice at 6-9 feet from a mini.

When I was a kid I used those crimped LR shot cartridges to kill rats in the barn. That was out of a single shot rifle, not a handgun, range maybe twenty feet. I also killed a couple of bats with the shot cartridges when they would fly real close at dusk. Not self defense - just pure blood lust. Like Louie says they also are good for bumble bees if you happen to have a nest in the eaves right over the swing.

[I]

I love bats and dragonflies. They are the Grim Reapers of mosquitoes and an ally in the worldwide battle against malaria, which claims more yearly victims than gunfire (source: World Health Organization.)

Love and peace through superior hearts, brains, preparedness, resourcefulness, firepower and respect for others.

[TeeJay37]

I've read about really old smooth bore .22 rifles intended for shot.

Hey, look what Remington has!

http://www.remington.com/en/pages/news-and-resources/press-releases/2007/firearms/new-smoothbore-version-of-model-572.aspx

New production .22 shotshell smoothie rifle! Remington 572 smooth bore!

I was at a friends house the other day and he showed me this old cleaning kit he had gotten from his grandmother. It had a box of .22 shot that said it was intended to be shot in smoothbore rifles. This was the first I had ever heard of a smoothbore .22. He said his brother had the rifle. I'm curious to know if it was a smoothbore or not. Everything was J.C. Higgins.

[TwoGunJayne]

Late 1800s, super early 1900s in America... there were a metric TON of gun makes that went by two initials and a last name.

Hey look at that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._C._Higgins

1908 to 1962 is the maximal possible range. I wouldn't have guessed you could get an early 1900s name so late into the 20th century like that.

According to the wiki, JC Higgins was actually a book keeper at Sears and had no known affiliation with hunting, sporting goods, etc. Bizarre!

[TeeJay37]

Huh, thanks for the info. I knew J.C. Higgins was a division of Sears, but didn't know he/she was a bookkeeper for the company.