Questions about Guardians - trying to decide which one to buy

[PaducahMichael]

OK Gang,

These may be some naive questions, but I really am not familiar with the calibers, etc.

I'm planning to buy a Guardian, but need some help understanding the differences in the calibers.

I've fired a .380 by another maker and found it harsh and unpleasant to shoot - lots of "feedback" from the weapon, etc.

Does the .32 NAA round feel the same in the Guardian as the .380? Is it really hard to find .32NAA amno?

And while we're on the subject, is .380 the same as .38? Mathematically, the same....but perhaps not in ammo?

I welcome all thoughts and opinions of which is the "better" firearm.

[TwoGunJayne]

The problem with gun caliber names is many of them have no basis in any actual measurement.

"38 special" is more like .357 actual diameter (plus or minus depending on your barrel.)

There was an antique cartridge, a forerunner of .380 auto called ".38 auto." I know someone who insists on calling .380 the wrong thing. He even writes it on his ammo cans in sharpie pen. Can't tell him a thing. I brought my loading book one day and showed someone else right next to him when we were having a conversation about .38 special and .380 auto.

"It's all the SAME!" No, it's not. .380 auto isn't a significant digit, or even an accurate measurement! It's a name. He owns zero weapons in .38 auto. There is a difference.

Linky time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.380_Auto is .355 diameter (or so.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Auto is .356 in diameter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_special is .357 in diameter.


For the longest time, I thought that .32 NAA took .32 acp bullets. Nope. It takes the same bullet diameter as the .32 S&W series and is different than .32 acp!


Anyway, if you find the way to grip your Guardian, the .32 acp (small frame Guardian) shouldn't be too much for you. Sounds weird, but it took some experimentation for me to get comfortable with it and I was holding it too high to start. It makes a difference.

The .380 and .32 NAA Guardian (large frame) has more weight to account for Newton's Second Law. They're more barky and bitey. I guess I prefer mine in .32 acp.

It's really up to you what you pursue, though. DAO trigger pocket pistols probably aren't going to win a bullseye match contest, but that's not what they are for.

Like Mr Natural says with his handy hint, "At home and at work, get the right tool for the job." I've been thinking a lot about that quote lately.

My .32 acp Guardian is a shirt pocket gun. I'm not sure I could swing that role with the larger frame.

[MR_22]

Calibers can be confusing.

Basically, a .380 and .38 are NOT the same and are not interchangeable.

a .380ACP, the full caliber designation, is basically a 9mm round, but shortened by 2mm. (9mm is 19mm and .380 is 17mm). 9mm is a rimless case and is typically used in semi-autos (like the Guardian). A .38-Special, the full caliber designation, is a longer shell casing, but typically lower pressure, and is primarily used in revolvers. a .357 magnum is basically the same as a .38-Special, but slightly longer and more power and capable pressure (why it's not a .38-Magnum, who knows. It's just a marketing ploy, I think).

If you found a .380ACP in another handgun to be  unpleasant, you will definitely find it unpleasant in the Guardian .380. In fact, my Guardian .380 typically has more felt recoil than other .380's--at least in my opinion. The .32ACP is significantly lower, but may still sting your hand in the Guardian .32. It's more manageable, but the Guardian .32 is also a lighter gun, so you feel the recoil more than you would if you were shooting .32ACp in a Guardian-.380-sized gun.

Typically, the heavier a gun, the lighter the felt recoil is. Some autos have a locked breach, like the Diamondback DB380, the Kel-Tec P3AT (.380), etc., which some say reduces the felt recoil, although some people debate that. (I believe the felt recoil is less with a locked breach. Some people argue with me on that, though. I think they're wrong, LOL.)

Technically, a .380, 9mm, 38-Special, and .357-magnum, are all the same caliber (caliber is basically the diameter of the bullet)--or at least close enough that the barrels can be the same size. The difference is in how long the bullet is (the bullet is just the projectile, usually made of lead) and what casing the bullet is inserted into.

The .32NAA (my favorite of all of these!) is definitely harder to find and your ammo sources are greatly limited, but they are currently available right now. Typically, the smaller bullet you are shooting, the lesser the felt recoil is, so it should be lighter than .380, but not a whole lot. (I think it IS lighter myself.)

Not a naive question at all. Caliber discussions can be a bit confusing. (And we haven't even talked about 9mm Makarov, or 9x18, or .38 Super, or 9mm Winchester Magnum, and on and on, LOL.)

[cfsharry]

PM,
I would be interested in knowing the make of the .380 you found to be uncomfortable to shoot. I've read this a number of times about the .380, (several times here about the Guardian), and believe it to be a problem of gun ergonomics not of this particular cartridge. I have shot a number of pocket .380s and the two I have found to shoot the best and own are the SIG P238 and the Colt Mustang Pocketlite. Both are pussycats to shoot. I have never fired a Guardian .380 as I feel it is heavier than I would like.
2GJ is right about bullets being a wee bit confusing. Two websites you might be interested in spending some time at and guaranteed to improve your knowledge base are the Hornady website and a really great and informative site called Ballistics by the Inch.

[PaducahMichael]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies - I'm learning a lot.

I have also considered a Ruger LC9. I have a Glock 17 (9mm) that I really enjoy. Again, the smaller gun may make it bark a little more. Another option is the Glock 26 which is about the size of the LC9. 

For PD, I think I'd feel better with a 9mm. Thoughts on this?

[TwoGunJayne]

Wikipedia also has many fantastic articles about guns.

It might also be extremely informative to pick up a reloading manual, like the current issue of Lyman's or Lee's. I was like a little kid again when I first got mine, poring over old load data... you know what I was looking for. The hottest, the fastest, the most energy... the "-est" loads. Unfortunately, this sort of thing tends to be extremely tough on a gun. It's darned informative, though. I was extremely surprised to find similarity between many, many rifle cartridges and how I was completely wrong with others.

I used to think that the .30-06 is "a lot more powerful" than a .308. Actually they're almost ballistically identical. The top-of-the-top hottest loads give the .30-06 a slight edge, but it's barely enough to matter and it's pushing the gun to its limits. Most loadings of those two cartridges are pretty much the same, particularly when you count the shot-to-shot variation present in modern smokeless bottleneck cartridges.

It's just like 7.62x39 (the AK, SKS, etc Russian round) hits the same as American .30-30. The bullets ACT differently, but that's because they're designed differently. Raw energy, they're about the same, with an ever-so-slight edge to the .30-30. It's the same story again!

I used to think that .45 ACP and 9mm were vastly different. Again, I was wrong. Looking at ballistic gel, the top loads of these two cartridges hit about the same. Looking at overall energy, both of these cartridges can be pushed to around 500 foot pounds of energy, given the correct platform to do it. You're not getting that out of a pocket pistol! Some people favor one over the other and present "facts" to state that one is better. Yeah, compare a .45 acp target load to Cor-Bon Pow'rball 9mm and of course the 9mm "wins." ...but that's not the whole picture.

I've mostly been talking about raw power in this post. What happens when the bullet strikes the target and how it acts under those conditions is another major factor. .45 tends to get more penetration than 9mm, but not always. You can easily craft a situation where one or the other "wins," but stop and look at the percentage difference between the two! It approaches statistically insignificant!

Top self-defense and hunting loads are totally different than light load target rounds. Caliber is almost irrelevant, since shot placement is so important.

The most effective handgun bullet? No such thing. It's 3 digits of muzzle energy. Rifles are 4 digits. It's not the same game at all. Like Col Jeff Cooper said, "pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles." The Box 'o Truth website guy says that, too, and he's got a bunch of tests and data to prove it. By the way, that's another FANTASTIC gun site for debunking garbage that "gun store guys" and "internet experts" say. It's kind of like the Snopes.com of guns.

[MR_22]

Ah, but Mr. 2GJ, my 22TCM handgun with a 5-inch barrel shoots a 40-grain ".22 Magnum" bullet at about the same speed as a 40-grain .22 Magnum round from a rifle.

[TwoGunJayne]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies - I'm learning a lot.

I have also considered a Ruger LC9. I have a Glock 17 (9mm) that I really enjoy. Again, the smaller gun may make it bark a little more. Another option is the Glock 26 which is about the size of the LC9. 

For PD, I think I'd feel better with a 9mm. Thoughts on this?

Ruger LC9 is a good choice.

Those glocks are great, but never forget this: With the factory "polygon" barrel, you must NEVER SHOOT CAST LEAD UNJACKETED BULLETS. A factory poly barrel is marked with a visible geometric shape on the square part of the barrel block visible while the gun is together. This isn't the same as "conventional rifling" and shooting soft lead nonjacket 9mm will blow up your glock. If you want to shoot that kind of thing, get an aftermarket barrel with "conventional rifling," such as Storm Lake, Bar-sto and so on.

The thing about that Glock 26 is it may not seem that much thicker when you compare it on a table to another pocket 9 or .380, but when it's slinging around in your pocket in a pocket holster it's like a giant brick. It's kind of hard to explain, but a tiny size increase makes a giant difference in pocket carry.

Old style Walthers, such as the larger PP, in .380 are a solid choice because though they're often much heavier than modern plastic frame pistols, this gives you excellent control, follow up shots, and comfortable shooting. If it hurts to shoot, you won't practise much and that's a bad thing. The Walther PPK series (k for kurtz, or "short" in German) get too small for my taste and control starts going out the window. There's also the Bersa copies of the PP pattern. Bersa also makes full size pistols, but they're not my taste. I really like their "380CC" model. You can shoot it all afternoon and not be sore. I can't say that for the Glock 26 or 27, those things make my hands shake terribly after 300 rounds with them. Maybe a ported barrel could tame that down some, but I've honestly never been interested in getting around to that.

There is also a lot to be said about the venerable old Makarov (in 9x18 Mak or .380, you can get 'em either way.) Made like tanks, cheap, and heavy enough to control... this was a serious military sidearm for quite some time. It conceals easy, or open carry it in a holster, whatever. Good guns.

Don't forget: Winter is coming up, and that means concealment jackets. Ahh yes, Glock 19 in a Bianchi 2-magazine shoulder holster. Great stuff. I love fall and winter. I get a bigger gun! The Glock 17 is too big for me to tote, I'm not a giant. The 19 is almost perfect. Something between a 27 and 19 is what I want, but oh well. It's hard to beat flush 15-rounders for the 19 with reloads being "Pearce +2" G17 mags: 19 rounders. Love it.

The phrase "carry all you can" comes to mind, but you get sick of it and want to leave it at home sometimes.

That's when you're glad you've got a Black Widow or Pug and a Guardian. You can get away with a Guardian while wearing slacks, shirt and tie. Not so for the Glocks so much. They feel a mile thick when you lug them around all day and they "print" like crazy.

Ah, but Mr. 2GJ, my 22TCM handgun with a 5-inch barrel shoots a 40-grain ".22 Magnum" bullet at about the same speed as a 40-grain .22 Magnum round from a rifle.

Yeah, technology is starting to blur things up a bit. I've always liked the .22 mag, and it's pretty ferocious out of a rifle for what it is. I have high expectations for "street stats" on the .22 TCM. I bet a lot of the "caliber starting in .4" guys are going to go straight into denial and say it's rigged or something.

The US SS (heh) had praise for .356 sig (.40 case bottled to 9mm.) People have been trying to crack the problem of a big pistol case necked to "tiny" for some time. It's starting to look like they "gave up" and settled on 9mm and .40 as parent cases and abandoned the attempts to do it with .45 acp and the mighty 10mm auto. (Not counting the 5.7 FN, of course. Those 5.7 guys seem to really hate the .22 TCM, or at least they did last time I wandered through a 5.7 forum.)

[cfsharry]

I happen to be one of the guys who believe that bigger is better. 9mm compared to .380, no contest. Size-wise, my 9mm Kimber Solo is bigger than my Colt Mustang only in width with it's weight the same as the Guardian .380. when the need for small is neccessary the Kimber is my primary, the Colt my secondary. When dress permits, a Browning HiPower is primary and the Kimber is my secondary.
In the end though, you have to try as many pieces as you can and find your own comfort zone. What you read is just someone else's opinion. What you experience is real knowledge.

[grayelky]

I have been piddling with guns and ballistics for over 40 years. There is a lot of information above. If I could give you a bit of advice, it would be this: the Laws of Physics are not suspended just because we are dealing with firearms. The ones we are primarily concerned with are:

1) Every action has an opposite and equal reaction. In redneck, that means "What happens on that thar end happens back here on this here end." Want a lot of stopping power? You are gonna get a lot of recoil.

2) Objects at rest tend to stay at rest, until something causes them to move.

AND

3) Heavier objects require more energy to move than lighter objects. In layman, that means, "Heavier guns kick less than lighter guns." It also indicates lighter bullets will generate less recoil than heavier bullets, if both are driven to the same velocities.

There is one more factor we have to take into consideration (yes, it has been touched on previously) -anyone care to guess before reading on?




It is ergonomics, or how the firearm fits our hand. Now, if we toss all of these ingredients into a pot, stir them well and pour them back out, what do we get?  Lets see. The more power a cartridge has, the more recoil it will generate. The heavier a gun is the less we will feel the recoil. (A heavy gun has the same amount of recoil energy as a lighter gun, IF they are both fired with ammo from the same box.) We will feel less recoil from the heavier gun, due to the weight of the gun requiring more energy to get it moving than the lighter gun. By the same token, if we fire 2 cartridges of the same caliber, from the same gun, both driven to the same velocity, BUT, change the bullet (projectile) weight, we will say the lighter bullet has less recoil. Back to the equal and opposite reaction thing. It takes more energy to move the heavier bullet than it does the lighter bullet, therefore, there is more recoil when firing heavier bullets TO THE SAME VELOCITY as a lighter bullet. Lets not forget the ergonomics, or how well the gun fits our hand. A gun that fits well will conform to our hand giving us more contact with the grip of the gun. We also have to consider experience in with ergonomics. A trained, practiced person will use the ergonomics to help him shoot better. I will use the masculine pronoun for simplicity of reading/typing. Females can learn to shoot any caliber they want to.

Now, what does all of this hot air have to do with the original question? Simply this: If the .380 caliber handgun you fired was a small, hard to hold, very light polymer pocket pistol, then, yes, it will have considerably more FELT recoil than a SS Guardian .380. Your particular question had to do with .380 vs .32 NAA. Okay, the 32 NAA has a smaller diameter, lighter bullet than the 380 ACP. They are both chambered in the same size and weight weapon (for all practical purposes), therefore, if they both have the same energy at the muzzle, we can expect the recoil energy to be equal. The way the firearm in question fits our hand, coupled with the experience of the shooter, will result in the perceived recoil. If the shooter has very small hands, and relatively weak muscles, such as an elderly woman without much experience shooting, she will say it has a great deal of recoil. A some what younger, more experienced shooter with larger hands will comment on the recoil not being bad at all.

For us to be able to predict how you may perceive the recoil, it would help a great deal to know what gun you have fired and the type ammo. Your past experience would be helpful. For instance, many find the recoil of a 3" barreled, 25 oz 1911 chambered in 45 ACP to be more than they can control. I prefer it for my daily carry, as opposed to a 4" barreled 28 ounce 1911 in the same caliber. Will 3 ounces make that much difference? To me, at the end of an 8 or 9 hour day, yes. To others, no. They prefer a larger gun they can hold better, thus control better. It matters not what caliber you shoot, if you miss. I would much prefer 2 hits with a 22 than 6 misses with my .45.

Of course, that brings up the discussion of caliber. You asked if a 9 mm would be better. Only if you can hit your target. Law enforcement investigated shootings seem to show caliber is far less important than we would like to think it is. What has been shown is a solid hit in a vital area will stop the attacker, while a hit to a non vital area will not. Then, you have old farts like me, who studied ballistics back in the ancient times, you know, back in the 70's and 80's. Back then, a large part of the "gun culture" believed you needed large, heavy bullets to stop an adversary. Old lessons die hard, and I still prefer a 230 grain, 45 caliber to protect me and my family. Metallurgy and bullet design were not what they are today. It was very difficult to get a bullet to expand, much less with any degree of reliability. You could have velocity and hoped for expansion, or you could have large, heavy projectiles. Ideally, you want larger, heavy projectiles that expand. Today, you can get both. Some prefer the softer recoil of a smaller diameter bullet moving much faster, as they can place the second and any other shots better, with more control. Want to get an argument started? Wander into any gunshop where a handful of guys are hanging around. Casually mention you are new to handgun shooting, and ask what is better for self defense, 9mm or 45.

[G50AE]

Why compromise?  Large caliber, heavy and fast = 50AE!

[cfsharry]

Gray,
That is about the best tutorial/explanation I think I have ever seen on this site. Thanks for taking the time to help the less experienced have a better understanding of handgun dynamics.

[Kentucky Kevin]

I always carry the NAA Mini's with holster grips, When I travel, or want to "carry' It is the Glock 26 in an ankle holster by Fobus. I'm 6'3" 220lbs but feel this conceals well and draws fast with practice, and is easier when seated in a car or restaurant

[heyjoe]

you cant go wrong with a Glock 26. i have mine for 20 years and never a hiccup. you might also want to check out the Rohrbaugh 9mm. its a steel pocket 9mm, very well made and expensive but worth it if you have the money.
here are the specifications:
Weight   13.5 oz
Length   5.2 in
Barrel length   2.9 in
Height   3.7 in

[PaducahMichael]

Grayelky, that was very, very informative and educational. Mr. Newton would be very proud!

To be perfectly frank, I don't recall the make or model of the .380 I tested. It was a friend's weapon and he said, "Here, try this!". I also fired a 1911 .45 that day and found it was not at all uncomfortable - I think your information about the ergonomics of the weapon is spot on. The 1911 fit my hand much better than the compact .380. Of course the 1911 is heavier in weight by a lot!

I'm learning a LOT from this thread - and your contribution is deeply appreciated.

[ikoiko]

HeyJoe,
Do you own the r9? I'd considered one, but a few things from reviews stopped me. Sounds a bit ammo picky; no +P (not that I'd want to really shoot hot ammo while trying to hold on to such a small gun); and comments like "made to carry often and shoot little" with spring replacements every 200 rounds.

Recent ammo shortages started me thinking I didn't want to buy any new ammo picky guns . . . So r9 and solo dropped off my want list . . . Not really dropped off, but makes me think about buying expensive picky eaters.

[MR_22]

you might also want to check out the Rohrbaugh 9mm. its a steel pocket 9mm, very well made and expensive but worth it if you have the money.

I want a Boberg Arms XR9-L.

[TwoGunJayne]

I hear a whole lot of 3" barrel and under ultralights eat up the main recoil spring 10 times as fast as a "full size" 5".

My 3" .380 has probably 5000 rounds on the original spring (many wimp target loads and zero hot loads!) while that 3" .45 1911 I was looking at had a maker's suggestion to swap the main recoil spring after FIVE HUNDRED rounds.

Newton's second law again. In addition, hotter and heavier loads push the materials closer to their limits for diminishing returns.

Just sayin', don't forget your main spring replacement schedule. Apparently it's a serious issue that batters the frame and slide, shortening the life of the gun if you don't take care of it.

[cfsharry]

The Boberg "Shorty" is a really neat little pistol. I had actually considered one but could not justify the extra $600 it would have cost over the Solo. A tad shorter but a also a tad taller and a wee bit heavier. The extra height did buy one more round in the magazine but if seven rounds doesn't cut the mustard I doubt that an eighth would either. Maybe some day, when my ship comes in, I'll take another look at the Boberg.

[MR_22]

I'm in the same ship ("boat"), cfsharry.

[heyjoe]

HeyJoe,
Do you own the r9? I'd considered one, but a few things from reviews stopped me. Sounds a bit ammo picky; no +P (not that I'd want to really shoot hot ammo while trying to hold on to such a small gun); and comments like "made to carry often and shoot little" with spring replacements every 200 rounds.

Recent ammo shortages started me thinking I didn't want to buy any new ammo picky guns . . . So r9 and solo dropped off my want list . . . Not really dropped off, but makes me think about buying expensive picky eaters.

No I dont own one. I already have a Glock 26 and i use the seecamp or north american arms  or airweight jframe for pocket carry so i didnt see the point. the spring does need to be changed often, im not sure of number of rounds and it is ammo picky but there are a number or brands that work well in it. if i didnt have the glock i would have bought one. it is perfect for what it is, a well built, small, all steel 9mm pocket gun. its not a range or target gun. its an up close and personal self defense weapon.

[grayelky]

Cfsharry and Paducah Michael-

First, thank you for the kind words. I hope my analogy helps to put "power" vs recoil into some kind of perspective for you.

While I prefer a .45 ACP over the 9mm, the Kimber Solo is very high on my "want" list. I feel it may well be the best combination of carry vs power vs weight, with the cost factored in. Everything is a trade off. It is up to the individual to decide what is most important to him/her based on the clothing being worn, circumstances, weather and (the hardest part to guess) the likely hood a weapon may be needed. A common mantra among some of the more noteworthy experts on today's training scene is "Two is one, one is none". It is extremely rare I have just one gun on me. I have been following this train of thought for well over 30 years. Why? Twice, while at the range, I have had my department issued SS revolver fail to fire/function. Both times, it required the services of the armorer and part(s) to get it working again. I realized then what kind of position I would have been in had it been a work "problem" when my only gun failed. If we count a mini, 3 is not an uncommon number of guns for me to carry. While I always have a knife it is a tool, not a weapon.

Unless I run out of ammo! 

[TwoGunJayne]

I really liked your post, Gray. I didn't say so before because I thought it "goes without saying." You are obviously the top %1 of "gun store guys" in the world. Keep up the good work! 

Btw, I'm currently legally CC-'ing a .32 guardian, .22 mag BW, undisclosed .380 compact, and have an NAA short on the desk next to me. I'm fairly certain that should at least get me to my rifle. Hopefully...

3 is plenty, but 4 is better! 

[grayelky]

First, thank you. I like your way of thinking. Most do not realize the handgun was developed to get the fighting man to his rifle. Problem solved.

I was asked once by a deputy who was collecting my guns so I could go into the secure part of the County jail to interview a thief, " How d*** many guns do you have?" My reply was simple and honest, and remains my philosophy today "If all goes right, at least one more than I need."

[PRM]

The biggest problem with the .380 being uncomfortable to shoot comes mainly from the guns designed to shoot it.  The .380 is pretty much the big bore of the blow back design pistols.  And, it is pretty much a hand full in any make.  My favorite medium frame semi-autos will always be the Walther PP series.  I've owned  them in both the .380 and the .32 ACP.  Hands down for accuracy, faster follow-up shots and shooting fun is the .32.  The only blow back design pistol that I have found that is really comfortable with the .380 is the CZ 83. And then with the size and weight, you might as well go on up to the 9MM.  I compare it to shooting +P rounds in a J Frame Airweight.  Yea, it's effective and can be mastered, but it will never be something you want to spend an entire afternoon on the range shooting.   

[heyjoe]

Bobergs are getting mixed reviews on reliability and ammo pickiness. 

[grayelky]

PRM, in post #24, has just touched on something I have taught my 2 sons, and what I tell my customers who come in looking for a handgun for self defense:

Carry the most powerful cartridge you can control.

That sounds simple, and it is. Like I stated in a previous post, I would prefer 2 good hits with a .22 mag over 5 solid misses with a .38. It does you no good to carry a 1911 in .45 ACP if you cannot make reliable hits with it. Here is where each of us has to be honest with our own self, and not let pride get in the way. If you cannot make repeatable, solid hits with a given caliber then you have to determine if you need to go to a less powerful cartridge or, a larger weapon to enable you to control that cartridge. As has been discussed, if we go to a smaller, lighter weapon, we will increase felt recoil of any given caliber. If it is not feaseable to go to a larger weapon, then we have to go to a lower powered cartridge. That is the only way to reduce felt recoil. The good news is, with practice, you will learn to control your weapon, and, at some point, your subconscious will tell you you are ready for more power. Like everything else in life, we get better at hitting our target or controlling recoil or using a lot of bullets to make one, itty bitty hole in the target, or all of the previous, by practicing! Want to hit an apple at 100 yards with a bow? Practice. Want to throw a football 60 yards to a receiver? Practice. Want to bake a great cake? Practice. Like everything else in life, getting good at controling recoil requires practice.

Do we have to practice with a small, light weight 9mm and endure the recoil and muzzle flip to get good with it? Yes, and no. At some point, yes, you will have to practice with your light weight gun to be able to control it and learn to make hits. You can do a lot of the preliminary work with a .22. It makes no difference (to a degree) what you are shooting, the basics are the same:
You have to :
Align the sights
hold the gun firmly, with a proper grip
control your breathing
gently squeeze the trigger (not jerk it) with the proper portion of your finger
learn to feel the trigger "break"
hold the gun steady
train your brain to accept a noise when you feel the trigger break

I am not a certified instructor, so I am confident there are steps I am leaving out. The point is, there is a lot to learn, and these steps can be learned shooting .22 lr at (used to be) $3.00 a box of 50, or 9mm at (again, used to be) $15.00 a box of 50. It does not matter. The basics are all the same. Once the basics are learned and you are confident in your ability, your brain will tell you when it is time to move up to a larger caliber. It may well be cheaper to start with the .22, then move up as you are ready. IF you start with a larger caliber, you will develop a flinch. This is an unconscious effort to hold the muzzle down and not let it "jump up". In part this is a natural reaction to the noise, and to the sudden movement of the gun. Consider the mechanics of shooting a small group. It involves holding the gun steady, maintaing the proper alignment of the sights, gently squeezing the trigger, etc. Now, toss in the sudden downward movement of the muzzle. In order to shoot a small group, you would have to pull the front of the gun down the same amount, at the precise time the bullet leaves the muzzle every time. Good luck with that. It is hard enough to just hold it steady. Once you develop this habit of flinching, you will have to break it. Why? Look at your target. The bullet holes will be strung up and down the target, if there are holes in the paper. This is no way to be able to put a bullet in the center mass of our adversary. You have to be able to do that to stop the assailant. Keep in the back of your mind the fact the bullets in your gun are your responsibility, and you have to be able to explain why they are where they are. Sometimes this is easy. You only fired once, one bullet is in the bad guy and four others are still in your gun. No problem! On the other hand, if you have 1 bullet in the bad guy, and 3 in your gun, what happened to the other one? (You were using your 5 shot mini, weren't you?)

"Oh that one. Uh, its in that other guy laying on the ground over there......" "But, officer, what do you mean "oops" is not good enough?"

Do I need to continue? I suspect not. Practice, and it will not be a problem. Don't want to practice? Can't afford to practice? Its your call. After all, we are only talking about your life.....

[cfsharry]

I am always suprised that anyone would consider the .380 to be a "handful". My assumption when reading a statement to that effect is that the writer has a limited exposure to different makes and therefore has not found a comfortable gun to shoot or that he/she is highly recoil sensitive. I would seriously suggest trying either of the two pistols I mentioned above. Both are all metal and are patterned after the 1911. They have, for most shooters, great ergonomics and are really easy to shoot.

[TwoGunJayne]

Carry the most powerful cartridge you can control.

Shot placement is everything. Can you not control a .45 subcompact swinging around in your hand, much less uncomfortably in your pocket?

Practice, shot placement, regular drills, okay.

We are so on the same page, Gray, it's not funny. Good stuff!

Anyway, if you can control a tiny compact pistol in .50 or .65 or whatever, that's great. Most people can't handle those recoil impulse forces.

[heyjoe]

excellant post grayelky!  this is why when someone asks my opinion (not often) about which gun to learn on when first starting out I recommend a smith and wesson model 10   4" barrel with wadcutters. easy to operate. solid gun. practice on wadcutters, then move on up gradually to standard 38 then +P. People do themselves a disservice in my opinion when they try to learn on a small semi auto or j frame revolver.

[TwoGunJayne]

I have always thought that once you try to "learn minis" that you've transcended the average and are looking for pure perfection.

That big ol' iron on your hip reminds me of an old western song.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Iron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGmUsJvRv7U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QatzAo_I0aI

"Big iron on your hip," huh?

[grayelky]

heyjoe-
First, thanks!

I have made that very recommendation quite a lot, and for the same reasons. In an ideal world, start with a model 17*, move on to the model 10 and wadcutters. Not many people can afford to do it that way in the real world.

*S&W Model 17 is built on the same frame as the model 10, but, it has adjustable sights, while the model 10 has fixed sights.

2GJ-
Marty Robbins is one of my favorite singers. Gunfighter Ballards and More Gunfighter Ballards are 2 of my all time favorite albums

[OV-1D]

  It truly is odd how newbies want the smallest large caliber pocket gun until they go to fire them and realize HOLY MOLY and then question their abilities and judgments .Even these 22 mag mini's are a shock to some not alone these 45-410 derringers , most people should not , I hate to say it , put their hands on any firearm or a alcohol drink for that matter . Like you guys said a lot of knowledge is needed not just pulling a trigger , oh well .  

[I]

Friend of mine got a ring of fire .357 derringer. Guess it was a good thing he never shot it enough to find out out how bad they are. Maybe it was the extreme recoil. He said you just carry it and it wasn't meant to be shot.

That sounds crazy to me and I can't get my brain on that thinking. It's like carrying condoms but you're a monk or something. The moment of truth is not the time to realize you don't know what to do because you've never done it before.

[grayelky]

...The moment of truth is not the time to realize you don't know what to do because you've never done it before.

I-
You have no idea how many times I have told that same thing to people who have come into my store, bought a gun, and when they find out ammo comes in 20 and 50 round boxes, will take the 20 round box, "...because I just don't need a whole lot of bullets. I am only gonna use it in case somebody breaks in the house." Those are the times I actually feel bad about having sold a gun to some one who really should not have one.