Bird/rat shot as first round for SD?

[Kensterfly]

I have one round of CCI shot in the Mini I've given to my wife as a carry.   I told her to shoot the BG in the face with the first shot if he comes with a couple of yards.  That ought to take the wind out of his sails while she follows up with four hollow points to his chest, eye or ear.   The shot round is positioned to  rotate into the firing chamber when she first cocks the gun.

Thoughts?

[grayelky]

I have some pictures of a heavy cardboard barrel that was shot with rat shot. The penetration sucks! If she is justified in using lethal force, why go part way? She only has 5 tries. IF she hits his eyes, yes, it may well give her extra time to shoot more. BUT, if he is now blinded, is she justified in shooting more? (As long as she has ammo, I see no reason to take it home.) There are those in our society who think it is of a higher morale act for a woman to accept being raped and/or robbed, than it is to fire a gun, and maybe take a chance on hurting some one else. They also are not big fans of poor, misunderstood folks getting hurt when they are just trying to get by. Just for the record, I AM NOT one of "those" people!

Many, many years ago, I used to do the same thing. Society has changed since then.

[jw1128]

I carry a 642 that way a lot, for legal defense dao and first shot less letal, but when all I have is a mini I want every shot to count so its 5 critical defense in mine.

[G50AE]

If you want to fire shot for the first round, you should get a shotgun IMHO.  And then you can transition to your sidearm be it a mini, a guardian or a Glock.

[Kensterfly]

If you want to fire shot for the first round, you should get a shotgun IMHO.  And then you can transition to your sidearm be it a mini, a guardian or a Glock.

I don't think my bride will agree to toting a shotgun across the WalMart parking lot.

[G50AE]

If you want to fire shot for the first round, you should get a shotgun IMHO.  And then you can transition to your sidearm be it a mini, a guardian or a Glock.

I don't think my bride will agree to toting a shotgun across the WalMart parking lot.

LOL, I was actually thinking more along the lines of home protection than carry.

[Kensterfly]

Oh, well, for home protection she has a double barrel 16 gauge LC Smith, two S&W Model 10 .38s, and a Ruger Blackhawk .357.

I'm just talking about birdshot in the NAA pocket gun in case of rude behaviour in the parking lot at the grocery store.

[G50AE]

I'm just talking about birdshot in the NAA pocket gun in case of rude behaviour in the parking lot at the grocery store.

Shooting someone with birdshot because they dissed you in the parking lot at the grocery store is not a very "tactical" and probably not even a legitimate use of deadly force.  A firearm is an instrument of deadly force.  You use it when your other option is looking up at the paramedics and asking them if they can patch you back together, or worse having to visit the county coroner's office for an overnight stay.  Perhaps you and your lady need to read "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob.  In this book Mr. Ayoob explains the moral and ethical conversation you need to have with yourself if you are considering the regular carry of firearms.

[Kensterfly]

I'm just talking about birdshot in the NAA pocket gun in case of rude behaviour in the parking lot at the grocery store.

Shooting someone with birdshot because they dissed you in the parking lot at the grocery store is not a very "tactical" and probably not even a legitimate use of deadly force.  A firearm is an instrument of deadly force.  You use it when your other option is looking up at the paramedics and asking them if they can patch you back together, or worse having to visit the county coroner's office for an overnight stay.  Perhaps you and your lady need to read "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob.  In this book Mr. Ayoob explains the moral and ethical conversation you need to have with yourself if you are considering the regular carry of firearms.

Dude, lighten up.  Was my use of euphemism too subtle for you?  Had I been more graphic and said something about "attempted rape in the parking lot" would you have better understood the message?  I read Ayoob's book for the first of many times about 30 years ago.   Yes, this is serious business but again I say, lighten up.  We're on the same team.

[G50AE]

Had I been more graphic and said something about "attempted rape in the parking lot" would you have better understood the message?

Then why would you want to use birdshot?

I read Ayoob's book for the first of many times about 30 years ago.   Yes, this is serious business but again I say, lighten up.  We're on the same team.

Good, I might also suggest "After You Shoot" by Evan Nappen.  He was recently on the NRA News Radio show talking about his new book.

[Kensterfly]

As described in my opening post, I merely was curious if it might be effective to carry bird shot in your #1 chamber as a "can't miss" shot to the face that ought to slow an attack down enough to carefully place a stopping blow, or several, to the chest or head.  I've seen that many others have suggested that.  I was just asking for my own benefit.

So, what do you think about it?  (and we are talking about a Mini in the hands of woman who won't carry anything else.)

[Dinadan]

Kensterfly - this topic comes up occasionally here. Personally I see no good reason to carry a shotshell as the first round. The legal ramifications of discharging a firearm in an altercation are just to great to do it unless it is serious enough to warrant deadly force, in my opinion. I have not read Mr Ayoob's stuff so I lack any insight you may have got from him.

[Kensterfly]

Dinadan, thank you for a reasonable response.

In Texas, the CHL manual says "The OBJECTIVE of Force/Deadly Force is to STOP, control or neutralize the other so as to eliminate the apprehension of a fear for life."  The stated objective is not to kill the attacker.  That may be a biproduct of our defense.   We were taught never to state that we intended to kill the BG, only that we were intent on stopping his actions.

Deadly Force is not necessarily dictated and if it was, we would be required to shoot loads a lot bigger than .22s (which is the subject of this forum.)  If a face full of birdshot would stop an attack and perhaps prevent a death of either the attacker or the intended victim, why not try it?  As CCL holders, we are empowered to STOP, control or neutralize an attack.  The law seems to leave to us exactly how we do that.
My original question sought opinions on the efficacy of bird shot in stopping, controlling or neutralizing an attack, possibly giving you an extra second to place some well aimed follow up shots. 

  I'm sorry that asking a question in this forum makes me look like a kid.  At 61, I assure you that I am not. 

[G50AE]

Kensterfly - this topic comes up occasionally here. Personally I see no good reason to carry a shotshell as the first round. The legal ramifications of discharging a firearm in an altercation are just to great to do it unless it is serious enough to warrant deadly force, in my opinion.

That was what I was getting at Dinadan.  You and I seem to think alike most of the time.

[Dinadan]

Kensterfly - I do not think that Boone's comment about 'a kid" was directed at you: I believe he referred to another poster. Many, if not most of us here are not exactly kids anymore. I am sixty myself and possibly one of the youngest. One or two fellows are decades older than I!

Anyway, do not hesitate to ask questions. There is a lot of factual knowledge here, and even more opinions and philosophy. Sometimes the philosophers get a bit tetchy!

[Kensterfly]

Kenster. I was talking to you, not about you.

Boone, my apologies.  Thank you for clarifying that. 

Dinadan, thank you, also, for your comments.   I ask a lot of questions.  That's how I learn.  Sometimes I seem argumentative when it's really just seeking more information.

Cheers!

[cfsharry]

I have one round of CCI shot in the Mini I've given to my wife as a carry.

Regarding the Mini what is your wife's current level of competency with the it?
The reason I ask is that it is my belief the Mini is a difficult gun to shoot well and the .22 cartridge marginally effective as a self defense cartridge at best. Add to this the lack of effectiveness of the .22 shot cartridge fired from a short barreled handgun and you have the potential for disaster.

[Kensterfly]

I have one round of CCI shot in the Mini I've given to my wife as a carry.

Regarding the Mini what is your wife's current level of competency with the it?
The reason I ask is that it is my belief the Mini is a difficult gun to shoot well and the .22 cartridge marginally effective as a self defense cartridge at best. Add to this the lack of effectiveness of the .22 shot cartridge fired from a short barreled handgun and you have the potential for disaster.

Good points.  I had her shoot about 30 rounds this weekend.  She did very well at ranges from three feet to 10-12.  I'm pretty sure she could hit someone in the face with bird shot if they come within a few feet.   I don't expect anything more of the Mini than close up defense.  I wouldn't expect too much  more for myself and my .38.   

I'm not pushing the use of bird shot, just probing the idea of using it for the first round shot.  I'm getting the idea that it probably wouldn't be very effective.

[cfsharry]

Kentserfly,

Don't know if you've ever opened a .22 shot shell but the shot is #12, pretty small stuff. In my estimation loading one gives you only four useful rounds.
After you've been here a while, you'll come to recognize the fellows who are truely knowledgable about guns.  grayelky,  Dinadan and boone fall into that catagory.

[Kensterfly]

Kentserfly,

Don't know if you've ever opened a .22 shot shell but the shot is #12, pretty small stuff. In my estimation loading one gives you only four useful rounds.
After you've been here a while, you'll come to recognize the fellows who are truely knowledgable about guns.  grayelky,  Dinadan and boone fall into that catagory.

Thank you, Gentlemen.  I'm convinced.  The bird shot comes out right now.

Cheers.

[G50AE]

Thank you, Gentlemen.  I'm convinced.  The bird shot comes out right now.

Cheers.

Glad we could convince you.

L'Chaim

[Kevin55]

If you want to spray someone in the face, get some bear spray.  Or a stun gun,

Using a firearm is deadly force, you only shoot to incapacitate, assuming you may just kill them.

I talked to a police sergeant.  If an officer shoots someone and the suspect doesn't  die, the officer are in trouble.  Is your aim that bad?  Off to the range for training.
Do you intend to just wound the person?  Off to class to review when deadly force is permitted.  Using deadly force when it is not needed is prohibited.  Shooting to wound is not permitted.  Shooting to stop someone as lethal force was needed, is permissible.  ie shoot to kill or not at all. And you had better be justified in trying to kill them.

[G50AE]

FWIW, I routinely carry a can of OC spray because the legal environment in my state does not allow me to carry everywhere that I would like.

[redhawk4]

I have one round of CCI shot in the Mini I've given to my wife as a carry.   I told her to shoot the BG in the face with the first shot if he comes with a couple of yards.  That ought to take the wind out of his sails while she follows up with four hollow points to his chest, eye or ear.   The shot round is positioned to  rotate into the firing chamber when she first cocks the gun.

Thoughts?

All I can say is NO, Don't do it!

For SD you should only be firing because you life is in danger and to kill the attacker. There a many, many reasons why this is a really bad idea using a shot shell.  Firstly there could be a number of  legal ramifications for shooting someone with a "none lethal" round, with the case being argued that by using a non lethal round you didn't need to shoot in the first place, followed by an "expensive" civil case if you blinded someone with the shot. If someone comes at you quickly, who's to say you get a second shot and depending on the time you have to draw your weapon there is no guarantee you would even get a shot at someone's face. If the bad guy covers his face with his arms as you point the gun at him, a natural response, then you will just pepper his forearms and the pain will likely make him very angry, certainly not a good outcome for a women to face with an attacker who if a sexual predator already has plenty of stored up anger against women. Also, there is the question of at what point do you decide it's appropriate to shoot? the average person is going to wait until they are certain of the other's intentions, by then it's too late to be messing around with a shot shell.

I could go on and list many more reasons, but with only 5 rounds in a marginal caliber anyway, why would you want to handicap yourself further by making one of those rounds even less effective? Perhaps the question that should be asked is, can anyone give a reason why this is a good idea?

[OV-1D]

  Gun ownership 101 if one pulls their weapon it is in order to use it in an lethal manner otherwise it stays in the holster with hand on grip . If that can't or won't be done one should not own a weapon of such , that's why owning a gun is a very serious position , there is no compromise . If you don't want to or plan to kill someone you should not have a gun in the first place because your chances of being killed with your own weapon has increased substantially .   

[redhawk4]

OV-1D - that was one of my other points that I didn't bother to make. If you are having second thoughts about using lethal force on someone who attacks you, then you have to seriously consider why you are carrying a gun.

I think the OP was thinking along the lines that the Birdshot fired first might have some tactical benefit for the follow up shots, but IMO it's just an all round bad idea, which ever way you look at it,

[bbgun]

I usually carry a ratshot in the first cylinder to fire.  Living here in FL my chances of firing at a snake is far more likely than at a BG.  In ten years I have fired at three snakes and no BGs.  Score:  Me - 3    Snakes - 0

[cfsharry]

What's with all the snake shooting?  Why do so many feel the need to kill snakes?  Kill all the Pythons and Anacondas you can if in FL but leave the native species be.  Without them we'd be overrun by vermin.  Snakes are good. Unless it's a member of the pit viper family and is living under your deck.

[redhawk4]

I usually carry a ratshot in the first cylinder to fire.  Living here in FL my chances of firing at a snake is far more likely than at a BG.  In ten years I have fired at three snakes and no BGs.  Score:  Me - 3    Snakes - 0

Nothing wrong with that, Snakeshot for snakes, Self Defence Ammo for human predators.

[Dinadan]

What's with all the snake shooting?  Why do so many feel the need to kill snakes?  Kill all the Pythons and Anacondas you can if in FL but leave the native species be.  Without them we'd be overrun by vermin.  Snakes are good. Unless it's a member of the pit viper family and is living under your deck.

Well, I agree with that sentiment. I never kill non poisonous snakes, and in the last decade I  even stopped killing poisonous snakes unless they are near a dwelling. But that is just me - I love seeing and observing wild animals. However, I would like to bring my kayak down to the Everglades and get in on a hunt for those feral pythons. That just sounds like a lot of fun!

[OV-1D]

  They taste like chicken , hahaha . They need to go but are is nothing to shooting them more excitement using a machete , if they would put them on the menu they would be gone in no time . If I was closer to the bigger problem I'd think twice going to a Chinese restaurant around there , they would be replacing cats with pythons saying it's pork or beef for that matter besides who knows just what it REALLY is  ,hahaha .   

[doc_stadig]

I have a quick test for the originator of the thread, if you fill your mini with .22 blanks, have an unknown to your wife armed with that mini, approach her in a menacing way, now this is really a trial by fire, literally. If she can fire that weapon, then you can actually feel safe to have her armed. Yes, it is very extreme, and most would say, no way, she would freak, I showed my daughter this way and she was able to fire the first round, that is 99% of being in a self-defense situation, to be able to fire that first round, she shouldn't be told about it till it is over with, and, obviously it is not something for the weak at heart, but the result will give her a truer idea if she actually is capable of taking a life. Again, I'm not advocating this for everyone, but I was able to have full confidence to give my daughter a .40 Auto, and know she would not have her weapon wrested from her, because of fear of taking a life. If you don't feel comfortable with her using blanks, just give her an unloaded revolver, and use the same scenario, the blanks, however, will drive the point home.
I'm not advocating this kind of trial for everyone, in fact, I would not recommend it, but it will help give her confidence in a desperate situation. NOT FOR EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!


Doc

[doc_stadig]

What's with all the snake shooting?  Why do so many feel the need to kill snakes?  Kill all the Pythons and Anacondas you can if in FL but leave the native species be.  Without them we'd be overrun by vermin.  Snakes are good. Unless it's a member of the pit viper family and is living under your deck.

Well, I agree with that sentiment. I never kill non poisonous snakes, and in the last decade I  even stopped killing poisonous snakes unless they are near a dwelling. But that is just me - I love seeing and observing wild animals. However, I would like to bring my kayak down to the Everglades and get in on a hunt for those feral pythons. That just sounds like a lot of fun!

I'm not one to trust snakes, the few that I've killed, when asked if they were poisonous, apparently pleaded their 5th amendment rights, because they didn't answer me.     
I know a taxidermist not far from here, that proved that you can't even trust snakes when they're dead. He was starting a rattlesnake mount of a snake that had been in his freezer for a year, for a year, mind you, and as he was adjusting the head for the mount, it fell forward, and he instinctively grabbed for it, and his finger hit the fang, there was still venom in it, and he started having symptoms of venom poisoning, I told him to go get treated. Now if that isn't proof that "the only good snake, is a dead snake," is a fallacy, I don't know what is!!!     


Doc

[Dinadan]

Kensterfly - sorry for the thread drift, but I guess you got you question answered already.

Doc - I taught my daughter to always check a gun to see if it is loaded when she picks it up. Now I realize that I need to teach her to also check the ammo to be sure it is real. I have told her not to ever take anyone's word about whether the gun was loaded: did not think about telling her to check if it had ratshot or blanks!

Regarding snakes, I am a bit more wary than I used to be. Once in a briar patch I grabbed what I thought was a rat snake by the tail and pulled it out of the briars. When I lifted that snake up to my eye level it opened its mouth and revealed the sharpest pair of fangs I ever saw: each had a tiny drop of venom already hanging from the tooth. Water moccasin! Wish I had a photo to share! When I dropped that snake it seemed to take forever for it to fall far enough to be out of reach of my hand. Oh well, here is cute little rattler I met a couple of years ago.

[redhawk4]

Doc, if I did that to my wife she would pretty quickly prove her ability to taking a human  life, by taking mine

For the right people and personalities it's actually not a bad idea as long as you make sure they know it won't be a joke next time.