Magnum cap and ball Companion.

[OLD and GRUMPY]

I have decided to take her back to the range and try to work out our differences. The big problem is with loading.  #1- because it is a loose bullet it is hard to get it lined up straight in the chamber.#2-the hand tool for loading that comes with it does not help with that.The punch is fixed and does not swivel like the ones for the bigger Colts. #3-the punch does not conform to the shape of the 30gr NAA bullets . This can deform the nose . Cock-eyed and deformed is no way to go through a bore!  I have made a hand punch to try out.

Do any of the black powder guys have tricks or  ideas for this? Is there a better loader? I love her but she is like a high maintenance girl friend--lot of work for a little fun. And then you still have to clean up! Thanks. And I do know that part of the problem is me.

[EDELWEISS]

Ive been interested in the C&B guns for awhile, especially since they aren't "firearms" and can be owned / carried in some NPE's (Non Permissive Environments) without a CCW.  Ive been debating between the Magnum and LR size guns; but decided on the LR gun because of the smaller size.  Im thinking the smaller size is a bigger advantage then the marginally added extra power of the magnum size gun.

[OLD and GRUMPY]

Have you shot BP before? Your a cop so you know guns but BP is a bit of a different animal. Find a BP club around you.I thought your badge is your off duty carry permit. I think it is that way in CA.

As far as punch goes I don't think the BP minis are a true equal of the lr or mag. I have never seen stats but the bullet is 30gr not 40 and the powder charge is not exact. My mag "feels" much stronger than a lr but just under a cartridge mag. Glad to have another "smoker" around.

[swolf]

I just got my new Super Companion a week ago.  Ordered the boot grips (on sale) and a spare 100 bullets too.  I bought a #4 mold and cast up some pure lead round ball for it and that is all I've shot in it so far.  The #4 shot is only 20 gr (I thought it would be heavier than the bullets.)  I fired a couple rounds with Hodgdon 4f and they bounced off plywood at 15 feet.  I may have been a little light with the powder in the measure.  I noticed with the round ball that they are tricky to line up and press straight without deforming the top.  The bullets are taller, so I'll be modifying the loader too.  I didn't like how the loader bit the edge of the cylinder, but I'm assuming it was operator inexperience.  Rigging a press like you can get for the .44 Colts would work great for backyard plinking and range use. A bit of lube on the bullet at the start should help.

[OLD and GRUMPY]

The punch on the loader will deform the bullets also. If you come up with something better post pictures. I like the idea of lube on  the ball first.#4 is oversize and probably shaves 1-3 gr off when loading. I have not done this but toyed with the idea of using 2 #4 balls for a total of about 35gr. Might be a BAD idea. Stick with the amount of powder NAA says.If you go over or use the hotter 777 you will split and fragment caps jamming the little bugger.It's no fun trying to clear it with live chambers.Also the pin takes all the recoil on the C&B and you can spring it using too much powder. Plywood in close is a bad idea.It can bounce back standard lr.Use glasses. Had a sub sonic lr come back and hit my  ear protector. Have you ever used lubed felt wads in your colt? I made up some for the Companion.I got some .22 felt air gun cleaning pellets. Soaked them in lube and cut them short. They worked well but I still like lube over the ball better. This is fun! Going to Burro Saturday . Love the smell of sulfur in the morning!

[Uncle_Lee]

There are some states that consider blackpowder revolvers to be firearms and regulate them the same.

To all those who are reading this thread and don't know the law of their state, check it out before you start carrying a blackpowder revolver around without a permit. You could end up in big trouble.

[OLD and GRUMPY]

Thanks Unc. Keeping us out of trouble. I am in the communist state of California.We have very strict gun laws.They change by zip code. BP needs a CCW. BUT to buy BP is cash and carry. No FFL no ID on guns ,powder, or caps. At least for now. This might be a big part of the reason BP sales and use are up.

[MR_22]

Since you can buy a black powder pistol without an FFL, some people think it's not considered a real firearm, so the gun laws don't apply. Not so.

In my state, there is no language in state law distinguishing between a black powder firearm and a cartridge firearm. According to the applicable laws, they are the same. They ARE considered firearms.

[Uncle_Lee]

Since you can buy a black powder pistol without an FFL, some people think it's not considered a real firearm, so the gun laws don't apply. Not so.

In my state, there is no language in state law distinguishing between a black powder firearm and a cartridge firearm. According to the applicable laws, they are the same. They ARE considered firearms.

In most states you can buy a blackpowder revolver without an FFL.
Not all states.
That is what I tried to say.

If some folks think everyone should know the law, so be it.
There are new comers here and I try to help them.
There is a certain responsibility to help one another.
If anyone is so brilliant that they don't need any help, then just ignore me. I won't be offended. Hey, sometimes I am even wrong.
I live in the real world where sharing is nice. I don't live in my own world.

[joewolz]

To add to the law part of the discussion: in Illinois black powder weapons are explicitly considered firearms.  Anything that fires a projectile over 700 fps is a firearms here...you need a FOID card for many pellet guns.

The state police do not consistently enforce the black powder law though.  I've had officers tell me I can have them shipped to my house no problem, and others tell me I must use an FFL.  There is a state form to fill out in addition to the federal one here.  BP guns get the state form only.  There's confusion over the waiting period.  One gun store made me wait 3 days for a BP pistol, another just handed it over.

I live close to Indiana and have friends there.  I buy BP guns there.  It's a lot easier and the law is clearer.

[MR_22]

To add to the law part of the discussion: in Illinois black powder weapons are explicitly considered firearms.  Anything that fires a projectile over 700 fps is a firearms here...you need a FOID card for many pellet guns.

That's interesting. I didn't know that. That's horrible. I wouldn't be surprised if a black powder NAA Companion in .22LR didn't hit that 700 fps limit. Most of my pellet and BB's guns wouldn't either, but a few would. I think my Gamo rifle shoots at around 900 fps. I doubt any of them that use CO2 go that fast, but the pumps do.

[Dinadan]

I do not have any expertise on either the law or NAA cap and ball. But I cannot imagine a LEO making a distinction between a black powder revolver and a cartridge revolver if it becomes an issue. Maybe a lawyer and a judge could sort out the legalities, but still a huge and probably expensive hassle for the guy involved.

Edelweiss - Are you thinking of the BP Mini as a backup for your work gun(or a backup for your backup)? Just curious.

[MR_22]

Well in MARYLAND the distinction will or at least should be in the specific charges,  For instance a C&P revolver is NOT a handgun here, but it IS a deadly weapon.

Really. That's bizarre. In gun-friendly Utah, a cap and ball revolver IS a hangun, just like any other firearm. It just has more relaxed rules for obtaining one. And in anti-gun Maryland, it's not a handgun? That's indeed weird.

[OLD and GRUMPY]

Mini and I went to the range yesterday. We are back on speaking terms. Still not great but better. I hit the target this time! 5 out of 5 in the 12" black at 20'.  For contrast I hit a 12" target at 40 yards with my 1851 navy.

Loading is not much better and the punch fell out of the loader and is now lost. Pulling the pin is still hard after only the first cylinder is fired. Might send it back to Utah for some TLC. Should not be that hard even dirty.Had to grip it with pliers. I found that if you go past the 5th shot and drop the hammer a second time on a spent cap it will nail the cap to the nipple and you will need to drive it out from the inside.

All in all it was a good day. Spent it with my kid and came home stinking of sulfur, then barbecue and grand kids.

[swolf]

I like the idea of lube on  the ball first.#4 is oversize and probably shaves 1-3 gr off when loading. I have not done this but toyed with the idea of using 2 #4 balls for a total of about 35gr. Might be a BAD idea. Stick with the amount of powder NAA says.If you go over or use the hotter 777 you will split and fragment caps jamming the little bugger.It's no fun trying to clear it with live chambers.Also the pin takes all the recoil on the C&B and you can spring it using too much powder. Plywood in close is a bad idea.It can bounce back standard lr.Use glasses. Had a sub sonic lr come back and hit my  ear protector. Have you ever used lubed felt wads in your colt? I made up some for the Companion.I got some .22 felt air gun cleaning pellets. Soaked them in lube and cut them short.

I hadn't thought about how much lead comes off the 20gr #4.  I wouldn't see a problem with loading 2 balls as long as they are tight together.  Some of the ones I cast ended up with a flat spot where the sprue was trimmed a bit tight and would seat nicely together.
I did purchase some 777 but haven't tried it yet.  Seems like most people use that.  I didn't see NAA specificaly recommending any particular powder--They say the powder measure holds 4 grains of Pyrodex or FFFF in the manual, and in their description writeup they say the Companion "uses" Pyrodex or FFFF.  I didn't interpret that to be exclusive, though common sense would exclude smokeless.  The cap backing out certainly makes the choice easier.  I already have a hard time prying Remmington caps off.  I found a guy that makes a "tap-o-cap" style maker and will try making my own from aluminum that will be thinner than Rem caps.  I've popped a few sample caps to make sure they fit in the recess, but haven't fired a full load with them.  I'll post a review of the cap maker after I play with it a bit more.  I was thrilled to find someone making them for a fair price.
The plywood bouncers surprised me, but I always wear shooting glasses (less hassle than a trip to the doc!) but one shot hit me in the chest and left a neat .22 round bruise.  Made me consider wearing a "shooting cup" also.  A bouncer in the nards would ruin my day.  I've been hit by Colibri powderless bouncers a few times, but they have no energy left after a rebound.  I'll have to set up my steel .22 trap for use with the Companion.

[willr]

I thought I'd like to have one, but there is no place to fire it -- indoor ranges are much too restrictive.  I fired my BP revolver many years ago, but don't any more.
Was in a GS one time and there was a released felon shopping.  He asked if he could buy one.  Proprietor said he'd be glad to sell it to him -- perfectly legal.  But he warned the shopper that just as soon as he loaded  it, he would be committing another felony.  Things are not always what we want them to be.
willr

[MR_22]

Isn't it illegal to knowingly sell a firearm, even black powder, to a felon? I thought it was.

It may have even been a violation of this felon's parole to enter a gun store. They are not only not supposed to have them, but they are supposed to stay away from them.

[EDELWEISS]

Isn't it illegal to knowingly sell a firearm, even black powder, to a felon? I thought it was.

It may have even been a violation of this felon's parole to enter a gun store. They are not only not supposed to have them, but they are supposed to stay away from them.

BP guns are NOT firearms.  Felons CAN own them.  Its no different than owning a crossbow or a Trebuchet....

[OLD and GRUMPY]

Is this one of those laws that changes state by state? In CA regs change by zip code and by city. You can order stuff and the dealer will ship to some zips but not others in the same state.

[swolf]

Not just state-by-state, but person-by-person.  A felon's probation officer or agent decides what he can access in regards to a "weapon."  A PO can restrict a released felon from even carrying a walking stick.  I work in corrections and deal with this daily.  A felon with the attitude of "You can't tell me what to do" can be restricted from even walking through the bb gun section of Walmart.  I worked with a guy who nearly got in trouble for having a blow gun.  A black powder pistol is a "deadly weapon" by any standard, whether it is considered a "firearm" or not.

[MR_22]

Isn't it illegal to knowingly sell a firearm, even black powder, to a felon? I thought it was.

It may have even been a violation of this felon's parole to enter a gun store. They are not only not supposed to have them, but they are supposed to stay away from them.

BP guns are NOT firearms.  Felons CAN own them.  Its no different than owning a crossbow or a Trebuchet....

That's not true. At least as far as my knowledge goes. I know for a fact that my state does not distinguish between black powder firearms and "standard" ATF-controlled firearms. The only difference in that you don't need an FFL for black powder.

But I don't think felons can own or even possess black powder firearms. In fact, I have a friend who was convicted of a felony and he said his parole officer said he couldn't even possess or use a bow. He didn't specifically mention a crossbow. I don't know about the bows, but black powder? NO.

Black powder firearms are not controlled firearms, but they are still firearms.

[MR_22]

OK, here ya go, directly from the ATF:

https://www.atf.gov/file/61721/download

According to this, felon CANNOT own a black powder firearm unless the firearm is deemed antique, or made before 1898. A replica black powder firearm made after 1898 does not qualify as antique and felons are prohibited from possessing them. A firearm manufactured before 1898 is not considered a firearm, and therefore a felon may possess one, as long as it cannot readily be converted to accept modern cartridges.

[RogueTS1]

Now just to spice things up and play Devil's Advocate: once a felon has completed his time, including probation why should he not be able to possess a firearm of any kind? Why should he be denied his God given 2nd Amendment rights? He does not lose his 1st Amendment or 4th Amendment rights.

Now I care nothing for just about any true criminal but it if one believes in one having God given rights then man should not be able to take them away once one's debts are paid. It is one of those subjects; think about it. I understand the reasoning but it just makes sense if looked at in an honest manner.

[OLD and GRUMPY]

You guys are making my head spin!  All I want to do is make the squirrels run faster!

[MR_22]

Now just to spice things up and play Devil's Advocate: once a felon has completed his time, including probation why should he not be able to possess a firearm of any kind? Why should he be denied his God given 2nd Amendment rights? He does not lose his 1st Amendment or 4th Amendment rights.

If the felony wasn't violent, I don't think gun rights should have been stripped in the first place. What's the point of that?

[MR_22]

I suppose there may be a question about the NAA COMPANION being "readily converted" to a modern firearm--that would be up to NAA and the courts to decide BUT, NAA has repeatedly stated the COMPANION guns are not able to shoot modern cartridges THUS they are NOT modern firearms and
CAN BE OWNED BY FELONS....

I guess I don't know. If there are state laws preventing a felon from possessing ANY firearm, that would also add to the confusion.

I'm just trying really hard to not commit a felony, so I don't have to worry about this. Bummer if you do.

[OLD and GRUMPY]

Thread drift is NOT a felony ! Like other stuff it happens.We are "tolerant" about it.(that means we all have done it). Don't let me stop you. This is how I learn. I agree about the paint on the P51. But I drift.

[To Old To Run]

You guys are making my head spin!  All I want to do is make the squirrels run faster!

How about that cannon that was mentioned on the forum, big boom boom, that surely would make the squirrels run faster, and it is black powder, so to stay with the post somewhat 

[OLD and GRUMPY]

Is there ONE web site that gathers and collates all gun laws and regs? Put in your Zip code and get what applies to you?

[scbuxton]

Try this link, grumpy.
NRA-ILA | Gun Laws
https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/

[OLD and GRUMPY]

Thanks .That's a good start.

[Jugband]

Isn't it illegal to knowingly sell a firearm, even black powder, to a felon? I thought it was.

It may have even been a violation of this felon's parole to enter a gun store. They are not only not supposed to have them, but they are supposed to stay away from them.

BP guns are NOT firearms.  Felons CAN own them.  Its no different than owning a crossbow or a Trebuchet....

That's not true. At least as far as my knowledge goes. I know for a fact that my state does not distinguish between black powder firearms and "standard" ATF-controlled firearms. The only difference in that you don't need an FFL for black powder.

But I don't think felons can own or even possess black powder firearms. In fact, I have a friend who was convicted of a felony and he said his parole officer said he couldn't even possess or use a bow. He didn't specifically mention a crossbow. I don't know about the bows, but black powder? NO.

Black powder firearms are not controlled firearms, but they are still firearms.

Actually, the ATF website specifically states that they are NOT still firearms.

Anything that doesn't use a centerfire or rimfire primer is classed as an "Antique Firearm", and they go to pains to explain that it is not a "firearm" and not restricted in any way.

Visit www.atf.gov, and search for "Antique"

If your state doesn't specifically say that it IS a firearm, then Federal Law governs, and it is not. Some states, however, DO specifically place further restriction on muzzle loaders, even to the point of requiring them to be shipped through a FFL, just like a "Firearm".  Even cities can decide that they are "Firearms".

Other point, an "Antique Firearm" is legally different from a "Firearm That Is An Antique", and it has nothing to do with whether black powder is used, or smokeless.

A Companion is legally an Antique Firearm, since it doesn't use a rimfire cartridge, even though it was manufactured a few months ago and bears no slight resemblance to actual antique guns.

But an original Colt Peacemaker (.45 Long Colt) IS considered a firearm even if it was made in 1878, since it uses a cased, centerfire cartridge that is currently commercially available and still fireable, though no longer loaded with black powder.  The .45LC is intentionally loaded way below it's potential power level specifically because there are still 135-year-old revolvers around which can shoot the cartridge.

The old Colt cartridge revolvers and the old 1896 Broomhandle Mausers are two good examples of Firearms That Are Antique, but still classed the same as a Glock by ATF.

[zburkett]

Now just to spice things up and play Devil's Advocate: once a felon has completed his time, including probation why should he not be able to possess a firearm of any kind? Why should he be denied his God given 2nd Amendment rights? He does not lose his 1st Amendment or 4th Amendment rights.

Now I care nothing for just about any true criminal but it if one believes in one having God given rights then man should not be able to take them away once one's debts are paid. It is one of those subjects; think about it. I understand the reasoning but it just makes sense if looked at in an honest manner.

Then there is Virginia where our crook Governor just restored voting rights to felons so they can vote for Hillery.  He did not restore 2nd Amendment rights.  He is counting on that being enough to steal the election.  Like they say, not all democrats are crooks but all crooks are democrats.

[theysayimnotme]

[/The old Colt cartridge revolvers and the old 1896 Broomhandle Mausers are two good examples of Firearms That Are Antique, but still classed the same as a Glock by ATF.
[/quote] 

Not quite since you can have a shoulder stock with the Broomhandle. In the DPRK you can buy a black powder revolver & a cartridge conversion cylinder & walk out of the store with them.

[OV-1D]

Now just to spice things up and play Devil's Advocate: once a felon has completed his time, including probation why should he not be able to possess a firearm of any kind? Why should he be denied his God given 2nd Amendment rights? He does not lose his 1st Amendment or 4th Amendment rights.

Now I care nothing for just about any true criminal but it if one believes in one having God given rights then man should not be able to take them away once one's debts are paid. It is one of those subjects; think about it. I understand the reasoning but it just makes sense if looked at in an honest manner.

Then there is Virginia where our crook Governor just restored voting rights to felons so they can vote for Hillery.  He did not restore 2nd Amendment rights.  He is counting on that being enough to steal the election.  Like they say, not all democrats are crooks but all crooks are democrats.

   Isn't it a shame just how these crooks manipulate the system for their own behalf , especially these liberal democrats that are so obivious as to their corruptions . I'm going to go ranting so I'm stopping now while I still have some control .