Tumbling ammo?

treyn00 · September-16-12 17:09

Just got a new .22 magnum mini 1.125" barrel for my wife to carry while she jogs. Yesterday at the range we began to have rounds tubling and hitting the target sideways. Less than 50 rounds total through the gun. Barrel is clean and rifling is faint but visible. Ammo was CCI MaxiMag TMJ. Any thoughts from other owners would be appreciated.

jupiter7 · September-16-12 18:09

Comes up every now and then. I'd try a variety of ammo in different bullet weights to confirm it's the gun and not the ammo. Personally, I've never had it happen, never shot the CCI TMJ either though.

treyn00 · September-16-12 18:09

I was definitely going to try a variety of ammo before sending it back, but wanted some feedback from others who have owned their minis for a while.

Dinadan · September-16-12 18:09

Treyn00 - welcome to the forum.

   Tumbling bullets, or keyholing, is pretty common with NAA Minis. Like Jupiter7

   said, try some different ammo. However, I think that CCI MaxiMags are one of the best

   rounds out there, so I doubt anything else will perform better. I think the crown is

   more likely to be the problem than the rifling. I tried polishing the crown of one of my

   Minis that keyholed a lot, and it seemed to help, but that is purely anecdotal - I did not

   do a statistical study!

millsriver · September-16-12 19:09

Good suggestions about trying different ammo. If it keeps up, call NAA customer Service and see what they say. I have had only limited experience with CS but they are great to work with.

adp3 · September-19-12 10:09

Try a heavier bullet like a 50 gr. Federal or CCI. Being longer they may be more stable.



   Best Regards,

   ADP3

treyn00 · September-20-12 07:09

Thanks for all the feedback. Turns out the cylinder does not line up with the barrel as it should. I purchased it from Davidsons so I am sending it back this afternoon for a replacement. From reading the message boards, it seems there are many happy costomers out there so I'll assume this was a fluke and the replacement will function properly.

I've never had to return a gun to Davidsons. Any reason I should send it back to NAA rather than simply get it replaced by Davidsons?

Thanks all,

RogueTS1 · September-20-12 08:09

Who is paying for the shipping back and forth to Davidson's and is there a FFL fee involved? If yes to any of these then sending it back to NAA will be better. They most likely will cover the cost of shipping and since no new gun involved no FFL fees. Plus you could get a properly fitted 22 LR at the same time for less costly practice and once again save some money.

greyeyezz · September-26-12 11:09

Sent my mini back a few weeks ago for keyholing, we'll see what they do. A few people have said they replaced the barrel but I don't see how thats possible as it looks like one piece.

Dinadan · September-26-12 14:09

Greyeyezz - The barrel is separate from the frame: if you look really close

   at the top of the gun you can see the join line. The design of the Magnum-mini

   and the LR-mini pretty well hides it everywhere except on the top. With the Pug

   and Black Widow it is easier to spot.

greyeyezz · September-27-12 06:09

Thanks for that info, guess I need glasses.

treyn00 · September-30-12 18:09

Since I started this post, I thought I'd follow up with the conclusion. I ended up sending mine back to Davidson's. I contacted them first to see how the return process worked. In talking with them I mentioned that I thougth I would go back to NAA so I could get the LR cylinder while I was at it. Davidson's said I could upgrade through them just by paying the difference. Davidson's paid the shipping both ways and I had my new gun (w/ both cylinders) in 36 hours. I was able to get to the range today. Fired somewhere around 75 rounds with not one keyhole.

Big props to NAA & Davidson's.

grayelky · October-01-12 05:10

Treyn00

You are the first person I have heard about who used Davidson's guarantee. Nice to know they handle things so nicely. You definetly got a good deal!

ikoiko · October-01-12 08:10

That is nice to know that their service is really good. I try to buy from them when able, my FFL always stresses their guarantee.

pioneer · October-01-12 17:10

I had the same problem with mine, tumbling with both .22 lr and .22 mag. all kinds of ammo. Two trips to NAA and they replaced the barrel. Now the pistol performs well. Nice round holes.

bbgun · October-01-12 22:10

All this tumbling stuff --I thought it was good for defense purposes. Made a bigger jagged hole. After all doesn't the M-16 bullet travel on the very edge of stability so that it hits and tumbles instantly?

grayelky · October-02-12 05:10

You can't compare the 22 LR and 22 mag to a 5.56 center fire cartridge. The 5.56 (M-16 round) is traveling at over 3000 feet per second. One of its problems is over penetration with its FMJ bullet. At those velocities, a bullet will have enough momentum to travel quite a bit, even sideways



   Long ago, the bullet was designed to have an area at the tip to be "empty" or (I hate to use this word) hollow. No, the tip was not a hollow point, like we use. There was a cavity inside the tip of the FMJ that was hollow. When it struck bone, the bullet tip would flatten out, bend to one side and then travel until it lost velocity. Those are the horror stories soldiers told from the Vietnam era. They could get hit in the thigh and the bullet come out the shoulder on the opposite side. I do not remember how or what organization (I suspect it was the UN) got the Countries to agree to not use this type bullet. It was good idea for "us" to use, but a really bad idea for the "other guys" to use on our troops. Yes, I am narrow minded like that!



   As to the edge of stability: If you can make a hit on a man sized target at 4oo yards, the bullet is stable. The problem develops when you use longer, heavier bullets than the standard 55-62 gr. If you go to a really heavy bullet, 70 grains or more, which will be longer for diameter of the 5.56 mm cartridge than the 55-62 grains bullet, you have to change the rate of twist in the barrel. I think the standard is 1 turn in 7 inches, and for the heavier bullets, it is one turn in 9 inches. It is typically written as: The rate of twist is 1:7. The natural question seems to me to be: Why use a heavier bullet? A heavier bullet has more penetrating power. It will also be more stable (stay true to its intended flight path) at longer ranges, and not be affected as much by the wind.

bbgun · October-02-12 05:10

Gray, Thanks again. You need a place in Wickipedia under "gun knowledge". You must have been born with a gun in your crib!

greyeyezz · October-12-12 10:10

QuoteI had the same problem with mine, tumbling with both .22 lr and .22 mag. all kinds of ammo. Two trips to NAA and they replaced the barrel. Now the pistol performs well. Nice round holes.

Why did it go back twice? Please don't tell me they just crowned the barrel the first time. Thats exactly what they did to mine. $:-\$

stantheman86 · October-15-12 08:10

60 gr. Aguila SSS .22 LR's tumble out of my .22 LR Mini with the 1 1/8" barrel.........IMO not good for defense because a very slow, sideways 60 gr. bullet probably would not even penetrate clothing and would then be useless for defense. Might as well be throwing rocks.

The only thing that makes my .22 LR Mini better than a knife is penetration, and I'm about to switch over to Remington Viper .22 LR so at least those little .22 pills will stab deep if God forbid I have to shoot to defend myself.

agrizzlyman · October-15-12 17:10

I just received my Black Widow Combo and am experiencing the tumbling problem mentioned with various ammo both LR and Mag.
I contacted NAA and got an immediate reply with an apology and authorization to return the gun for repair at their expense.
Excellent customer service so far (although it would have been nice if they checkout out the gun more thouroughly before it left the factory).
I hope the turn-around is quick and it doesn't require two trips as others have mentioned. I'll keep you posted.

agrizzlyman · October-22-12 16:10

Update: I received an e-mail today from NAA saying that they had received my revolver and what they thought was causing the keyholing problem couldn't be fixed and that they were sending me a new replacement Black Widow. Hopefully this won't take too long. Great customer service so far.

Duck Nut · October-22-12 17:10

I purchased the Holster Grip LR/Magnum Combo.

I'm also getting Key Holes at 10' with Hornaday Critical Defense loads in my .22 Magnum. Not the "Cheap Ammo.

I called customer service today. It's back to the dealer, then NAA.

agrizzlyman · October-26-12 19:10

Just received word that my replacement Black Widow will arrive on Tues.
A quick trip to the range and I'll know if all's well.

agrizzlyman · October-30-12 16:10

My replacement Black Widow arrived today as promissed. The paperwork said the original had a cracked forcing cone.
Went to the range and shot 50 perfectly round holes.

agrizzlyman · October-30-12 16:10

As mentioned above, tumbling .22s don't penetrate worth s**t. As fas as holes are concerned, Hornady Critical Defense and Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel, both in .22 mag. pack quite a punch and expand reliably from a 2" barrel. My choice for carry.

jjccamis · October-30-12 18:10

What exactly is a "forcing cone"?

agrizzlyman · October-30-12 18:10

The forcing cone, I believe, is the area of the barrel closest to the cylinder and before the rifling begins and includes that "disc" that protudes past the frame.

jjccamis · October-30-12 18:10

Thanks, Griz, confirms my suspicion.

Duck Nut · November-09-12 14:11

OK - Well I got my Holster Grip LR/Magnum Combo back yesterday.

NAA said on the phone that they replaced the barrel, sight & mechanism that advances the cylinder.

Haven't fired it yet though. I must say that there is now very little wobble in the cylinder both when cocked and at rest. This tells me that the cylinder was not aligning properly when it left the factory.

Sure glad it's finally back!

pioneer · November-27-12 11:11

I had the same problem with my then brand new Mini, both with lr and magnum cylinders. Sent it back to NAA and they replaced the barrel and crowned it. Problem solved. The customer service folks at NAA are a class act.

AZsnipe · December-02-12 19:12

Quote from: agrizzlyman on October-15-12 17:10
I just received my Black Widow Combo and am experiencing the tumbling problem mentioned with various ammo both LR and Mag.
I contacted NAA and got an immediate reply with an apology and authorization to return the gun for repair at their expense.
Excellent customer service so far (although it would have been nice if they checkout out the gun more thouroughly before it left the factory).
I hope the turn-around is quick and it doesn't require two trips as others have mentioned. I'll keep you posted.

Take a look at CCI STINGERS.
They are the fastest production 22lr out there...1640fps from a test barrel.

Snipe