.25 acp Mini ?

[seaotter]

The first time I ever fired a gun was in NC when I was 7 years old. My grandfather offered to let me shoot his Marlin 22 lever gun, but I told him that 22s were for kids, and thst I wanted to shoot his big gun, a Remington model1917 30.06. With a bit of a smile he handed it to me. He stood behind me, but not too close. I pulled the trigger, and promptly fell on my butt. I had a huge bruise on my shoulder, which I now suspect was dislocated. Since my Mother had strictly forbidden me to shoot, I had a very painful couple of weeks pretending that there was nothing at all wrong with my arm. Grandad said "now maybe you'll listen to me instead of thinking you're too big for your britches." When I had recovered from my learning experience he taught me how to shoot carefully and safely. He never let me do anything dangerous, but he had no problem with letting me suffer as a result of some stupid mistake."Pain is the best teacher" is what he always told me. In retrospect, he was right. That Remington is now mine. And when my kids got older I remembered how Grandad taught me..,
And made them shoot the 22 first!

Long story just to make a simple point: bigger isn't always better!

[OV-1D]

  I'll never sell my Beretta 25acp , its feels and fits the hand like it was born there . Never ,ever had a problem of any kind with it , I chalk it up to real quality workmanship and design . My Browning comes in second . Both feed like a dream .

[redhawk4]

  I'll never sell my Beretta 25acp , its feels and fits the hand like it was born there . Never ,ever had a problem of any kind with it , I chalk it up to real quality workmanship and design . My Browning comes in second . Both feed like a dream .

My 950 Beretta is definitely the easiest small handgun for me to shoot because despite its compact size it has a grip that even my big hand can get a purchase on, to hold it securely. That not only comes in for accuracy, but also makes it much less likely it will get knocked out of your hand in a scuffle. The Beretta 950 should be reintroduced it's one handgun in today's concealed carry world that might get interest in 25 acp invigorated. Before anyone says a Keltec is better and a bigger caliber, it is not close to the compactness of the 950.

[bill_deshivs]

The Keltec P32 and the Beretta 950 are almost the same size. The Keltec is thinner and lighter.
I love my 950s, though.

[Dinadan]

I seem to recall this topic coming up a few years back! While I would love to see and own a .25 ACP Mini I do not think that it will ever happen. At least not by NAA.

If I were fantasizing then I would like to see Ruger bring out a .32 S&W Long made along the lines of the LCR, with a five shot cylinder to keep it as small as possible. Every time I have handled the .38 LCRs I think that I am just not going to carry this revolver, it is too big. As far as I know no one makes a concealed carry type revolver in .32 Long these days - have I just missed it?

[redhawk4]

The Keltec P32 and the Beretta 950 are almost the same size. The Keltec is thinner and lighter.
I love my 950s, though.

You must have a different 950 or Keltec, they aren't that close.

[OV-1D]

  Beretta Bobcat 25 , whats that a 21A I think .

[Uncle Fatso]

I seem to recall this topic coming up a few years back! While I would love to see and own a .25 ACP Mini I do not think that it will ever happen. At least not by NAA.

If I were fantasizing then I would like to see Ruger bring out a .32 S&W Long made along the lines of the LCR, with a five shot cylinder to keep it as small as possible. Every time I have handled the .38 LCRs I think that I am just not going to carry this revolver, it is too big. As far as I know no one makes a concealed carry type revolver in .32 Long these days - have I just missed it?

S&W and Ruger make .32 magnum and .327 magnum small frame revolvers, which will shoot .32 S&W Long (or short)  They're basically the same size as the .38/.357 small frame guns but typically hold one more round.

[PaducahMichael]

  Beretta Bobcat 25 , whats that a 21A I think .

The current Bobcat is 21A. Earlier versions made in Italy were 950 and 950B. When they started making them in USA they had to add a safety and became 950BS. "S" for safety, of course. 950 series was single action only - the
21A is DA/SA.

[ds10speed]

How about a new round to make a really small revolver with more power?

Let's call it ".257 Magnum"

Well I think it would be cool anyway.

[PaducahMichael]

Now THERE is an idea - a real pocket rocket!

[ds10speed]

He is another idea: The new .17 WSM rimfire uses the same case diameter of the old .25 rimfires of way back (.270" case dia.). It would be easy for manufactures to make a .25 Mag rimfire since the .17 WSM starts out that way before it's necked down.

Pic of .25 rimfire rounds.

[RogueTS1]

I think is was PSA that was making the Babys again. Not sure.

Yes it is PSA and they are exact copies of the original. The parts will fit the original BB's but not the Bauers.

[bill_deshivs]

The Keltec P32 and the Beretta 950 are almost the same size. The Keltec is thinner and lighter.
I love my 950s, though.

You must have a different 950 or Keltec, they aren't that close.

I'll let the pictures speak for themselves...

[redhawk4]

Yes the Keltec is bigger and thicker, and in that case I'd carry one of my 380's instead. There's something about the exact size of the 950 that makes it work really well when you really don't want anyone to know you are carrying. The overall shape which is less block like etc. with the small barrel end just plain works for me at least

[seaotter]

There is a Bauer at our local Shop. Looks great, appears to function well. $249. I refuse to go back until it's gone. I want it, but with 5 pocket pistols already, I need a shotgun more.

[redhawk4]

There is a Bauer at our local Shop. Looks great, appears to function well. $249. I refuse to go back until it's gone. I want it, but with 5 pocket pistols already, I need a shotgun more.

Don't be so negative

[bill_deshivs]

It is my understanding that the greatest advantage of .25 apc is its reliability in a semi.

That is exactly what John Browning was after. He wanted tp duplicate the ballistics of the .22lr, but with center fire reliability. The .25acp is the smallest case he could shoe horn a small center fire primer into. Worked out pretty good! Was a go-to pocket gun for over a half a century.

That century is over. With the advent of smaller guns with higher capacity with larger rounds, and the higher reliability of rimfire rounds today, a 25 acp is no longer viable. Kind of like engraved, pretty "vest pocket guns" in a cargo pants generation...JMO

Yet, here you are on the NAA mini revolver forum.....

[grayelky]

Finally found a thread I started on this topic:

http://naaminis.com/smf/index.php?topic=938.0

[riadat]

The reason why 25 acp had its day was because the guns were smaller and more concealable.

I think if someone did a smaller lcp for example in 25 acp it would sell.

I think NAA already makes the best back up anytime gun. 

[bill_deshivs]

It's been my experience that rimfire ammunition is much less reliable than 30-40 years ago.
You can not put 9 shots into a head size target in 4 seconds with a mini revolver. It's pretty easy with a Jetfire.
The .25 is as viable as it ever was.
And it's physically impossible to make a .380 (or a .32 or .22lr) pistol as small as you can make a .25.

[redhawk4]

It's been my experience that rimfire ammunition is much less reliable than 30-40 years ago.
You can not put 9 shots into a head size target in 4 seconds with a mini revolver. It's pretty easy with a Jetfire.
The .25 is as viable as it ever was.
And it's physically impossible to make a .380 (or a .32 or .22lr) pistol as small as you can make a .25.

Pretty much covered all the bases there, that's why I love my Beretta 950's and they are still more than relevant when I choose to carry them when I need something I can really conceal. The rate of fire and capacity is what makes it such a great SD gun for backup or when it's all you've got.

[seaotter]

While I would like to have one of the tiny 25 autos, I think it would end up in my firearm cabinet, and I would continue to carry my Black Widow. It has better sights, I wouldn't have to worry about jamming, and I wouldn't have to a carry a cocked and locked striker fired pistol in my pocket. At least that's what I keep telling myself! And I am keeping a couple hundred bucks hidden away for when I find a nice used 32 Guardian. If I spent it on a 25, I just know that a Guardian would show up the next day.
But carrying the 25acp wouldnt bother me. I carry a 22 Lr BW or mini on a regular basis, and a 25 would be just as effective. Carrying a pocket pistol of any type means trading capability for  concealability. Most of us just kind of gamble that most people have a serious aversion to being shot. A 25 or a 22 will discourage most sane criminals. If i encounter a drug crazed maniac, I guess I will take my five shots and then run as fast as I can!

[cbl51]

While I would like to have one of the tiny 25 autos, I think it would end up in my firearm cabinet, and I would continue to carry my Black Widow. It has better sights, I wouldn't have to worry about jamming, and I wouldn't have to a carry a cocked and locked striker fired pistol in my pocket. At least that's what I keep telling myself! And I am keeping a couple hundred bucks hidden away for when I find a nice used 32 Guardian. If I spent it on a 25, I just know that a Guardian would show up the next day.
But carrying the 25acp wouldnt bother me. I carry a 22 Lr BW or mini on a regular basis, and a 25 would be just as effective. Carrying a pocket pistol of any type means trading capability for  concealability. Most of us just kind of gamble that most people have a serious aversion to being shot. A 25 or a 22 will discourage most sane criminals. If i encounter a drug crazed maniac, I guess I will take my five shots and then run as fast as I can!

You've stated most the reasons I went to w mini and just kept on carrying a mini. In my 20's I had a very noice Baby Browning for a while. Easy to carry, very very reliable. But one day while cleaning it, I looked and really noticed for the first time how the itty bitty little ledge on that sear was holding the firing pin back. Sooooo little! Thought that this thing is going to slip one day in my pocket. Sold it off at a gun show.

I'd love a little .25 or even .32 that was a real double action only.

[bill_deshivs]

In 45 years of studying, handling, repairing, customizing, and shooting pocket pistols, I have NEVER heard of a baby Browning sear failing.
Seems like if they were dangerous, somebody would have heard of it in the 80+ years the gun has been around.

[cbl51]

In 45 years of studying, handling, repairing, customizing, and shooting pocket pistols, I have NEVER heard of a baby Browning sear failing.
Seems like if they were dangerous, somebody would have heard of it in the 80+ years the gun has been around.

You're choice, but I'm not carrying a striker fired single action pistol in my pocket with a Round in the pipe. Getting hit by lightning is rare too, but I don't stand out on the golf course in a thunder storm.

[heyjoe]

In 45 years of studying, handling, repairing, customizing, and shooting pocket pistols, I have NEVER heard of a baby Browning sear failing.
Seems like if they were dangerous, somebody would have heard of it in the 80+ years the gun has been around.

thats good to know...i wondered about that . i have one.

[redhawk4]

While I would like to have one of the tiny 25 autos, I think it would end up in my firearm cabinet, and I would continue to carry my Black Widow. It has better sights, I wouldn't have to worry about jamming, and I wouldn't have to a carry a cocked and locked striker fired pistol in my pocket. At least that's what I keep telling myself! And I am keeping a couple hundred bucks hidden away for when I find a nice used 32 Guardian. If I spent it on a 25, I just know that a Guardian would show up the next day.
But carrying the 25acp wouldnt bother me. I carry a 22 Lr BW or mini on a regular basis, and a 25 would be just as effective. Carrying a pocket pistol of any type means trading capability for  concealability. Most of us just kind of gamble that most people have a serious aversion to being shot. A 25 or a 22 will discourage most sane criminals. If i encounter a drug crazed maniac, I guess I will take my five shots and then run as fast as I can!

You've stated most the reasons I went to w mini and just kept on carrying a mini. In my 20's I had a very noice Baby Browning for a while. Easy to carry, very very reliable. But one day while cleaning it, I looked and really noticed for the first time how the itty bitty little ledge on that sear was holding the firing pin back. Sooooo little! Thought that this thing is going to slip one day in my pocket. Sold it off at a gun show.

I'd love a little .25 or even .32 that was a real double action only.

Buy a Beretta 950bs instead then you don't have to worry yourself about such things.

[PaducahMichael]

But a Beretta 950 BS is single action only.

I like my Tomcat and Bobcat Berettas - they are DA/SA. Very reliable so far!

[cbl51]

But a Beretta 950 BS is single action only.

I like my Tomcat and Bobcat Berettas - they are DA/SA. Very reliable so far!

I had a Beretta 21 back in the 1980's, and was less than impressed by it. It was of course .22long rifle and I've learned not to included the terms rimfire and semi auto pistols in the same sentence. The next Beretta I buy will be either the .25acp bobcat or the .32acp tomcat. A little bigger than the Jetfire, but I like having the double action option. The daughter has a .25 Bobcat and it's reliable as all heck. Feeds anything so far.

[PaducahMichael]

Same with the Tomcat - both cats are just plain hungry and will eat anything I feed them.

[redhawk4]

But a Beretta 950 BS is single action only.

That IMO is why it is so wonderful, that single action trigger is what makes it so easy to shoot, so accurate and means you could put 9 rounds in an assailant, if necessary, with unbelievable speed. The 950 is vastly superior IMO to any of the double action models Beretta produced to follow it. The tip up barrel also gets round many of the downsides that I feel other SA only pistols, like the 1911, have because it makes it so easy to safely decock and unload the chamber.

Anyone who hasn't tried one should do so, my wife also loves shooting mine.

[redhawk4]

If you could put 9 rounds in, how effective were the first 8? Just asking...

That's why I said "if necessary", but also to emphasize the stupidity of the idea that 25 acp is ineffective. Based on NAA's ballistic charts the first 8 will be more effective than 22 lr and in some cases better than 22 Mag. IME attacks often involve more than one person, so 4.5 rounds a piece isn't too many.

[redhawk4]

Terminal stats:
25 acp...SD rounds: 5-5.6"  penetration, .29 expanded size tested out of a Barretta from three different rounds including Gold Dots. Ball rounds out of the same gun, 10" penetration, (no expansion), one of three tumbled.

.22 mag out of NAA BW...Gold dots 12.25" penetration, .33 expanded size; Hornady CD...15" penetration, .30 expanded size: CCI Maxi mag HP+ V 30 gr  17" penetration, (no expansion). Those 3 rounds are what I keep around the house...

I would rather have 5 shots, that have the power and expansion do the job, if placed well, rather than 9 shots that might. Just me.

I don't agree at all with your figures based on other studies and my own experience. Penetration comes from velocity, bullet weight and diameter, given the MV figures from NAA revolvers with short barrels, for 22 mag, and the ballistics from 25 acp pistols, if you want to believe 25 acp penetrates only 1/3 -1/2 of the amount then go ahead and do so, but you can't change the laws of physics. You are also comparing a BW which would be equivalent in size to one of the long barrel Beretta models. To compare like with like, you have to use similar sizes and barrel lengths or you may as well quote 22 mag rifle ballistics. I'm talking about something that will conceal like a Beretta 950. I've seen plenty of tests where a 50 grain 25 acp bullet has penetrated in the 15" -16" range in ballistic gel. According to NAA's figures a 50 grain bullet from a BW is as low as 718 fps, around 780 is more typical which is the same as my 25 acp ammo, which is centerfire, has a proper jacketed bullet and much more compact and IMO is more accurate as the bullet is not disturbed as it leaves the barrel by all the excess gas of the 22 mag.

Each to their own, but if I had to face an definite attack and my choice was between my 950 Beretta or one of my NAA revolvers I would have to choose the former, based on my experience of shooting both. Others experience may vary and I do carry an NAA revolver from time to time, as opposed to carrying my Guardian 380 most of the time, if ultimate concealability is not the issue.

[cbl51]

But a Beretta 950 BS is single action only.

That IMO is why it is so wonderful, that single action trigger is what makes it so easy to shoot, so accurate and means you could put 9 rounds in an assailant, if necessary, with unbelievable speed. The 950 is vastly superior IMO to any of the double action models Beretta produced to follow it. The tip up barrel also gets round many of the downsides that I feel other SA only pistols, like the 1911, have because it makes it so easy to safely decock and unload the chamber.

Anyone who hasn't tried one should do so, my wife also loves shooting mine.

I had one many years ago and like an idiot I traded it off on some gun of the month kick. I still wear elbow pads to this day because I keep falling down on a regular basis while kicking myself in the hind end. One of a couple big mistakes I made in my younger gun trading days of experimentation!

Believe me, if I see one at a gun show again, I'm scarfing that sucker up!!!