.25 acp Mini ?

[bill_deshivs]

Canoeal has posted this ridiculous misinformation before. Last time he gave me the source, and I explained to him he was reading it wrong- but he would have none of that.
The .25  acp from a 2" barrel is well known to penetrate 12+ inches in ballistic gel.
I have no idea where he got the information for his chart, but much of it looks incorrect.

[Oddball]

But a Beretta 950 BS is single action only.

I like my Tomcat and Bobcat Berettas - they are DA/SA. Very reliable so far!

If I were in the market, I would like a Tomcat in .32 auto,  but I usually buy new, because I don't like buying trouble, and I am not familiar enough to know 'good' from 'almost good'. Too bad they are out of production.

The new Tomcats were available a few months ago and I bought one. Model 3032. It's thicker than the old ones but I like it a lot and carry it often. It feels like a quality weapon and shoots like one. Its the only truly small auto I can fire comfortabley and accurately with my big hands.
This whole thread made think that 25acp would be best in a Guardian. I know they have it in 25NAA and I have to admit I'm tempted to order one of those but there's the whole ammo availability thing that I stress over. I hoard 22tcm now and its readily available compared to 25NAA.

[bill_deshivs]

No, that isn't the article that shows 7" of penetration.
It's really amusing to me that all the "experts" say that .25s don't work for defense, but people have been successfully using them for such for well over 100 years.
The .25 acp is what it is- the smallest available effective centerfire cartridge. Common sense tells us that bigger cartridges are better.

[cbl51]

And what Gentron says about the round in the description of the Jetfire...http://www.genitron.com/Handgun/Beretta/Pistol/950B-Jetfire/25-Auto/Variant-1

That is the most blatant spouting of parroted bullhocky I've ever seen. In my life I've personally witnessed one person getting killed by a little .25, and was personally acquainted with another person who was killed by a .25. That gives me the right to call BS on that bunch of sewer worthy garbage written by an author who is a know nothing repeater of internet BS and like a lot of writers is a legend in his own mind.

Offer them 25,000 thousand dollars in cash to stand in front of one for one single shot center of mass.

[Joeboots]

Im a sucker for little 25s , it would be cool if NAA made one

[glenn]

The only thing I can contribute to the .25 discussion, is this ....
Right around 45 years ago I had some sort of .25 auto. I remember shooting 4 or 5 rounds into the side of an empty 55 gallon steel drum & just made dents.  I promptly made someone else the proud owner of the only .25 I ever owned.

As for the 25,000 thousand dollars deal (I'm not quite sure on just how much money that is ... maybe $25,000 ?  ... or 25 thousand dollars ? )    The lack of someone taking that offer doesn't impress me much.  Let me make the same offer to you & me throw my 4" knife at your chest ?

As far as the .25 being a self defense weapon .... sure ... why not ?   The sight of ANY gun will deter most criminal activity.   My EDC is a NAA .22 Short ... & I'm fine with that.
I don't figure that the ... just shot badguy ... is gonna stop & ask you if that was just a .25 ... or just a .22 ... they're gonna be thinking "Holy crap , I've just been SHOT" ... & their Badguy goal has just had a reduction in priority levels.

.

[cbl51]

So, when some of the data is presented, there was no counter evidence used in rebuttal. That makes it tests vs your opinion, and since you seem to think that without any evidence contrary, it is your job to put down what was presented and me for presenting it. I think we are done here.
Richard Mann skips the .25 acp in his book and still has charts for the recommended performance to look for in  the lowly .22lr.
CB151 I NEVER said it couldn't kill. I think under some circumstances a 22 short can kill. I only said the 22 Mag out of a BW was more effective.

I think in the interest of civility we need to agree to disagree.

This is what I have great objections to;

"About the Cartridge

This cartridge was introduced in the United States along with the Browning-designed, Colt manufactured 'Vest Pocket' pistol. Also referred to as the 6.35mm Browning, this semi-rimmed centerfire cartridge has fairly high velocity for such a small size. However, the energy it delivers at any range is quite low. This, combined with the full metal jacketed bullet, adds up to a very poor stopping or killing power on anything. The .25 ACP is not powerful enough for hunting anything but pests, nor is it adequate for serious self defense. However, the .25 auto caliber pistols are popular because of their small size and low cost."

I have no idea who this person/persons are, but it's the trend of the so called gun writers who pass themselves off as "experts" try disdain the small calibers that are not the glory guns of gun shop sales. What real world experience do they have to promote themselves as the all knowing experts?

Yes, the lab tests in a sterile environment on blocks of gelatin show one result. But remove the test to a back alley, parking lot, or subway station in the wee hours of the night, and you find a whole other world. It's called the real world where a puncture in the heart, liver or other organs make a very distinct impression on a live human being.

I don't care what foot pounds or velocity figures show, it really doesn't matter. Tae a 6 or 7 inch stiletto and shove into a stomach of an attacker and what foot pounds of energy do you think it will read? It doesn't matter if it's not even 20 pounds, the effect is the same; a doubled over would be attacker.

In the 1960's the streets of D.C were flooded with cheap Italian Galleries and Tanflglio .25 autos. In the 1970's it was the Firearm International Titan's. In the 1980's and the crack wars, it was the Raven .25's. They all killed a lot of people, and those people didn't die a week later. They were found were they dropped where ever the drug deal went sour. Or like our friend Al who git dropped in a failed mugging at the metro parking garage where he took one single .25 round in the chest.

Too many gun writers who have never fired a single shot in anger, from good neighborhoods, and nice college educations, think that block of gelatin is a tell all. The simple fact is, there's a very wide gulf between the ballistics lab and the real world. Sometimes the round doesn't count as much as the platform. There's no way a Black widow can deliver the payload as fast and accurately as say a Beretta jetfire. The advantage of the .22 mag disappears in the real world when more rounds are delivered on target in the right place via a modern semi auto like a Beretta bobcat. In the time it takes to fire two shots from a BW, the Beretta can get off maybe 5 rounds more accurately.

In a ugly close encounter, faster and more accurate fire will negate the added "power of the .22mag vs the .25acp.

[bill_deshivs]

I offered as much "evidence" as you did. Because someone prints something does not make it factual.
While I don't feel like researching it for you, I believe the infamous FBI "penetration tests" showed the .25 penetrating 12+ inches of ballistics gel.

[cbl51]

All you need is 7 or 8 inches of penetration to do the job. Once the oil pump stops, it's game over right now. John Browning knew that and designed the .25acp round before he had the gun to fire it.

[Canoeal]

Ok I am done enjoy your toys. Goodbye. I won't be writing after this.

Oh and Bill you are full of s--t. The FBI Never did any ballistic testing on the 25 acp. They were testing the effectiveness of LEO rounds; we just use the 12" standard they did.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/4/16/throwback-thursday-the-fbi-ammo-tests/

[heyjoe]

i want a 25 acp jetfire now. i had one in my hand once for $175 and i bought a bond arms instead......not my best move

[PaducahMichael]

950 and 950 BS run around $250 - 500 for a really nice one. The Italian made ones (950 and 950B) are getting harder to find.

I really wanted one, but already have a Bobcat, which is sort of the same thing but with a safety and DA/SA. I REALLY, REALLY like my little Berettas.

[boone123]

Got some, want more....

[cbl51]

950 and 950 BS run around $250 - 500 for a really nice one. The Italian made ones (950 and 950B) are getting harder to find.

I really wanted one, but already have a Bobcat, which is sort of the same thing but with a safety and DA/SA. I REALLY, REALLY like my little Berettas.

How much bigger is a bobcat than a Jetfire? The grip seems to be the only thing that is a bit wider in photo's, a bit more bulky. I'm thinking of just breaking down and buying a bobcat in .25.

I'm haunting gun shows looking for a jetfire. I think Beretta has the small semiautonomous thing figured out pretty good.

[PaducahMichael]

Here's a photo of them together - Bobcat is on the right. Bobcat shown is a .22, but .25 is the same size.

[bill_deshivs]

The Bobcat is enlarged enough to accept the .22lr cartridge and D/A mechanism. Frame is bigger in all dimensions. Grip is particularly longer.

[redhawk4]

The Bobcat is enlarged enough to accept the .22lr cartridge and D/A mechanism. Frame is bigger in all dimensions. Grip is particularly longer.

Agreed, the 950 is definitely quite a bit more compact.

[cbl51]

Here's a photo of them together - Bobcat is on the right. Bobcat shown is a .22, but .25 is the same size.

Thanks! Just what I was looking for. I guess I'll keep looking for a clean jetfire.

[RogueTS1]

i want a 25 acp jetfire now. i had one in my hand once for $175 and i bought a bond arms instead......not my best move

Too bad Joe; I have two, maybe three of them in the vault.  They are awesome little pistols.

[WECSOG]

I would like an NAA mini in .25 ACP. Like a Black Widow with the fixed/replaceable sights, etc. to combine carryability with shootability. Ideally it would have the shorter .22LR length cylinder, with a longer barrel to make it the same overall length as a BW.

[redhawk4]

I would like an NAA mini in .25 ACP. Like a Black Widow with the fixed/replaceable sights, etc. to combine carryability with shootability. Ideally it would have the shorter .22LR length cylinder, with a longer barrel to make it the same overall length as a BW.

The cylinder length is why a 25 acp Mini would appeal to me, in addition to any other benefits it would look fantastic because the cylinder proportions would be much more pleasing to my eye than the long 22 magnum n in cylinders and as you say the reduction in cylinder length could go into a longer barrel.

[bill_deshivs]

A .25 cylinder could actually be shorter than a .22 lr cylinder.

[WECSOG]

A .25 cylinder could actually be shorter than a .22 lr cylinder.

It could, but I would prefer the same length as the LR cylinder so it could fit longer bullets. If I had something like that, I might have a custom bullet mold made for a ~70 grain full wadcutter.

[holiday009]

I'd prefer it to be the same length as the lr