Ballistics question

[miker]

I looked at the company chart, this isn't covered.

How does velocity compare firing a given round from a 22LR model, against the same round using the 22LR cylinder in a magnum convertible? (Both with the same barrel length of course.)

i.e. does the extra effective length due to the longer cylinder give any velocity benefit?

miker

[bearcatter]

The extra length of the magnum cylinder is because the total length of a WMR cartridge is 9mm longer. I don't see any significant advantage from that third of an inch.

[Warthog]

No Data, would have to agree with the above though...

[ex-mousekateer]

I compiled Django2442's Ranger II vs Sidewinder data into a head-to-head spreadsheet, and the extra 1/8" barrel length of the Ranger II, for the 4 types of ammo used for both tests, resulted in avg velocity increases of 5.7%, 2.1%, 9.9%, and 5.4%.

I don't know if extra cylinder length has as much impact as does extra barrel length, but it obviously doesn't take much to help a very short configuration.  Also, to rule out other unknowns, a RII and Sidewinder of the same barrel length would need to be tested to determine if one platform is more efficient than the other.

[miker]

Bearcatter, I'd then ask if .35" isn't worthwhile, why is .50"?  (The diff between 1-1/8 and 1-5/8.)

Thank you for the data, mousekateer - if 1/8" of barrel can make a repeatable difference, then I suppose .35" in the cylinder does too. And being pre-gap, maybe it has even more effect than the equivalent barrel length would.

Interesting to consider that, in the convertibles, the 22LR gets this help but the 22Mag doesn't. Narrows the performance gap?

miker

[Dinadan]

Thank you for the data, mousekateer - if 1/8" of barrel can make a repeatable difference, then I suppose .35" in the cylinder does too. And being pre-gap, maybe it has even more effect than the equivalent barrel length would.

Interesting to consider that, in the convertibles, the 22LR gets this help but the 22Mag doesn't. Narrows the performance gap?

miker

I think the extra length of the cylinder does help the LR ballistics. But the shorter the barrel the bigger the effect. On the Pug with its 1" barrel I question whether using magnums actually adds any significant velocity over top quality LRs. With 2" or longer barrels I would expect the effect to taper off quickly.

[billmeek]

What do you mean by "top quality LRs"?  Can you give me some specific suggestions?  While I won't be able to do it this weekend (match tomorrow and commitments Sunday), I could snag a few brands of 22LR and test against 22Mag in the Pug using my Labradar chronograph. 

[Dinadan]

What do you mean by "top quality LRs"?  Can you give me some specific suggestions?  While I won't be able to do it this weekend (match tomorrow and commitments Sunday), I could snag a few brands of 22LR and test against 22Mag in the Pug using my Labradar chronograph.

I am no expert, but I have done some penetration tests from time to time. From that and from what I have read, I consider CCI Velocitors the best, or one of the best LR rounds. With CCI Minimags not far behind. The reason that I specified top quality LRs is that there is such a big difference in the power of various LR ammo. I am not sure that the variation is so much with mags. I consider CCI/Speer Gold Dots to be one of the best mags: my choice.

[Mr.Mini]

Glad this topic is was brought up. I have a 1 5/8 mini lr and I've been trying to figure out the best 22 mag to get. While the Pug certainly has the "cool factor", I look at the performance first since it'll be carried as a backup and occasionally a primary. I was looking at the 1 5/8 versus the Pug. The gains of the longer barrel is certainly marginal, but I guess it's something. The bw would be ideal but the size discourages me. From what I've read it seems members who have both the Pug and BW stick with carrying the Pug.

[Django2442]

I compiled Django2442's Ranger II vs Sidewinder data into a head-to-head spreadsheet, and the extra 1/8" barrel length of the Ranger II, for the 4 types of ammo used for both tests, resulted in avg velocity increases of 5.7%, 2.1%, 9.9%, and 5.4%.

I don't know if extra cylinder length has as much impact as does extra barrel length, but it obviously doesn't take much to help a very short configuration.  Also, to rule out other unknowns, a RII and Sidewinder of the same barrel length would need to be tested to determine if one platform is more efficient than the other.

Bullet weight is also an added perspective to tie into ex-mousekateer's percentages

With the added 1/8"

40 grain Speer GD +54.1fps=9fpe
40 grain CCI  Maxi  +50.3fps=9fpe
30 grain Winchester +24.2fps=4fpe
50 grain Federal + 72fps=12fpe

The heavier projectile benefited the most from the added length, while the lighter projectile had the least dramatic change, and the 40 grains were consistent with the incremental increase in length, this is a consistency I see when working up loads for .45 Colt's between 200, 225, and 255 grain loads, more dwell time in the chamber & barrel building up more pressure.

[SteveZ-FL]

Trying to keep this "apples to apples," I compared the NAA-published ballistics data for my two favorite .22lr ammos (CCI Stinger 32g & CCI MiniMag 40g) for 1 1/8 (have one) & 1 5/8 models.   Also the "2 gun avg. mean" numbers seem the most logical for a statistical comparison, even if the comparison group is only two units.

The 1 1/8 Stinger number is 788
The 1 5/8 Stinger number is 801

The 1 1/8 MiniMag number is 681
The 1 5/8 MiniMag number is 702

The 13 fps Stinger difference is a 1.5% velocity increase, and the 21 fps MiniMag difference is a 3.1% velocity difference. To each his own, but that small a velocity increase is not significant enough for me to rate one mini over the other.  It just comes down to personal preference.

[miker]

billmeek, how about the CCI MiniMag 40gr? Decent cartridge, widely available, probably a good 'standard' to test with.

Thanks to all those quoting actual numbers, great info! Perhaps not a huge difference, but interesting to know nevertheless.

miker

[bearcatter]

I don't know if the NAA chambers are throated, getting smaller at the exit? Most .22 revolvers aren't, as the heeled bullet of rimfires is pretty snug already. If they are throated, it might make a little more increase in velocity than not. You can tell if they are throated by trying to insert a cartridge into the front of the cylinder.

[adp3]

I don't know if the NAA chambers are throated, getting smaller at the exit? Most .22 revolvers aren't, as the heeled bullet of rimfires is pretty snug already. If they are throated, it might make a little more increase in velocity than not. You can tell if they are throated by trying to insert a cartridge into the front of the cylinder.

I recently picked up a consecutive pair of NAA-22LLR's, the 1 5/8" barrel .22 LR's.  These have throated chambers.  I do not remember any of my earlier .22LR minis having chamber throats, but it's been a while since I had any .22LR models.  If this is a recent improvement, Thanks Sandy!

Best Regards,
ADP3

[ex-mousekateer]

I haven't paid much attention to the LR specs, but the Magnum velocity increases with barrel length are much more significant.  Attached is NAA's published data for each of the 4 Magnum configurations (1-1/8", 1-5/8", 2" BW, 4" MM ... no RII, Sidewinder, or Pug), cleaned up for easy head-to-head comparison, and with percentage increase (or decrease, in the case of the Mini-Master) added for each gain in barrel length.  I also used the 2-gun avg's.

Summary:  1-1/8" to 1-5/8" gains an average of 6.1% velocity, 1-5/8" to 2" gains an average of 14.9%, and 2" to 4" gains an average of 1.5%.  The "bookend" barrel lengths are the clear losers.  The Mini-Master data doesn't really make much sense to me.

Trying to keep this "apples to apples," I compared the NAA-published ballistics data for my two favorite .22lr ammos (CCI Stinger 32g & CCI MiniMag 40g) for 1 1/8 (have one) & 1 5/8 models.   Also the "2 gun avg. mean" numbers seem the most logical for a statistical comparison, even if the comparison group is only two units.

The 1 1/8 Stinger number is 788
The 1 5/8 Stinger number is 801

The 1 1/8 MiniMag number is 681
The 1 5/8 MiniMag number is 702

The 13 fps Stinger difference is a 1.5% velocity increase, and the 21 fps MiniMag difference is a 3.1% velocity difference. To each his own, but that small a velocity increase is not significant enough for me to rate one mini over the other.  It just comes down to personal preference.

[billmeek]

I consider CCI Velocitors the best, or one of the best LR rounds.

I'll check and see if I can locate a box or 2 of them locally. 

billmeek, how about the CCI MiniMag 40gr? Decent cartridge, widely available, probably a good 'standard' to test with.

I'm pretty sure I have a 2-3 partial boxes here.  Maybe a hundred to 150 rounds.  So I can definately test with those.

[Canoeal]

There is something about the velocity charts that are off. I noticed this a year or so ago. when i was compiling 22 mag performance tests from various sites. Take a look at the ammo charts below and you will see the difference between 2 & 4'' barrels changes dramatically for every gun but the MM. I think they need to re-run the tests on that gun. I think the chrono was miscalibrated...

[WECSOG]

I've noticed that before. I think the MM they tested had an overly large barrel/cylinder gap.

[ex-mousekateer]

There is something about the velocity charts that are off. I noticed this a year or so ago. when i was compiling 22 mag performance tests from various sites. Take a look at the ammo charts below and you will see the difference between 2 & 4'' barrels changes dramatically for every gun but the MM. I think they need to re-run the tests on that gun. I think the chrono was miscalibrated...

I've noticed that before. I think the MM they tested had an overly large barrel/cylinder gap.

Well, they're 2-gun averages like with the other configurations, but the MM in LR and Magnum has a much bigger discrepancy between the two guns than do the others.  You'd think that would have jumped out to NAA as being something to correct before reporting if it troubled them.  All in all, that tells me it's a tolerance and/or quality control issue with the Mini-Master, and those inconsistencies are to be expected.  Unless someone has better data to refute them, the averages are what they are.

[Canoeal]

The only question is then why do other 4" barreled guns show the expected increase in velocity? It is certainly not the ammo, if other guns like my Charter Arms Target Pathfinder have the increased velocity...

It can't be that hard to re-run the test, with a MM . Any of you with a chrono and an MM could compare your results with NAAs...

Looking at those comparisons again, the rounds from all BW and MM are within tolerances for being shot from the same model of gun...

[ex-mousekateer]

The only question is then why do other 4" barreled guns show the expected increase in velocity? It is certainly not the ammo, if other guns like my Charter Arms Target Pathfinder have the increased velocity...

It definitely should get better numbers out of the extra 2" of barrel.  4" is way below the fall-off point for any cartridge I've ever heard of.

To me, the question is whether it's a testing issue or a platform issue.  There's not really an attractive answer...  Either it's a very sloppy oversight on NAA's part (not catching the discrepancy and/or figuring it was worth publishing without analysis of underlying problems), or they deemed it a reasonable margin of error for the Mini-Master.  The latter doesn't really make sense, though, with it just being a Black Widow with an extra 2" of barrel.

[WECSOG]

No way it's a platform issue. I'm convinced it's a barrel quality/fitment issue, and NAA is ok with it. Otherwise why would they publish that data?

I don't have a .22 Mag with a 4" barrel to compare, but my 5.5" barreled Single Six chronos 1500+ fps with most .22 Magnum 40 grain loads. 4" should at least be closer to that than to 2" numbers.

[ex-mousekateer]

No way it's a platform issue. I'm convinced it's a barrel quality/fitment issue, and NAA is ok with it. Otherwise why would they publish that data?

That's what I mean by a platform issue.  If NAA is okay with it, then it's indicative of the tolerances of the Mini-Master, aka the platform.  (It's a frame and/or barrel issue, not a cylinder issue, since it affected both LR and WMR in the test.)  Unless it's just luck of the draw and none of the other tested/reported guns have reflected their respective ends of the spectrum.

[WECSOG]

No way it's a platform issue. I'm convinced it's a barrel quality/fitment issue, and NAA is ok with it. Otherwise why would they publish that data?

That's what I mean by a platform issue.  If NAA is okay with it, then it's indicative of the tolerances of the Mini-Master, aka the platform.  (It's a frame and/or barrel issue, not a cylinder issue, since it affected both LR and WMR in the test.)  Unless it's just luck of the draw and none of the other tested/reported guns have reflected their respective ends of the spectrum.

Ok. I misunderstood your meaning.

[bearcatter]

This reminds me of the Rimfire Central forum. They'll weigh every cartridge in a case, or measure the thickness of all the rims, looking for microscopic differences that will affect accuracy. Hey, it's a rimfire; something of a small miracle they fire at all. Here's a great article on designing and manufacturing rimfire, from American Rifleman. It used to be titled The Impossible Rimfire :

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2017/8/16/what-you-should-know-about-22-rimfire/

[miker]

Very interesting article! Thanks.

[billmeek]

I took the Pug out to the range today and fired 10 rounds of a few types of 22LR rifle through it to get some numbers from the LabRadar (doppler chronograph).  I forgot to change the projectile weight for the CCI Mini Mag and CCI Stingers so the kinetic energy values are off for those, but the velocity values should be correct.  There was one out of range value that I noticed... the first Stinger round.  I will say that I noted that round being louder than any other round fired out of the Pug today.  But I'd likely ignore that value as being unusual since the rest didn't exceed 892 fps.

You may note series 6 and 7 are both CCI Mags.  I have some older boxes here and bought a new box for the testing.  The results were interesting.  Look at the standard deviation range between the 2.

I'm putting the base stats in the post, but am also attaching a zip file that contains all the data including detailed spreadsheets for each shot if anyone want to dig into the numbers.  The numbers here match the series (i.e. SR000X) of the folders in the zip file:

1. Federal bulk (bucket of bullets)
Stats - Average   864.37   fps
Stats - Highest   903.18   fps
Stats - Lowest   830.96   fps
Stats - Ext. Spread   72.22   fps
Stats - Std. Dev   20.51   fps

2. CCI Quiet
Stats - Average   501.21   fps
Stats - Highest   536.73   fps
Stats - Lowest   476.31   fps
Stats - Ext. Spread   60.42   fps
Stats - Std. Dev   18.27   fps

3. Federal Blue Box
Stats - Average   889.02   fps
Stats - Highest   924.2   fps
Stats - Lowest   855.94   fps
Stats - Ext. Spread   68.26   fps
Stats - Std. Dev   17.21   fps

4. Geko Match
Stats - Average   699.84   fps
Stats - Highest   736.8   fps
Stats - Lowest   670.72   fps
Stats - Ext. Spread   66.08   fps
Stats - Std. Dev   23.24   fps

5. Aguila Super Extra
Stats - Average   810.79   fps
Stats - Highest   821.38   fps
Stats - Lowest   798.12   fps
Stats - Ext. Spread   23.26   fps
Stats - Std. Dev   7.7   fps

6. CCI Mini Mag (old) ? grain (box not marked)
Stats - Average   853.08   fps
Stats - Highest   879.59   fps
Stats - Lowest   841.95   fps
Stats - Ext. Spread   37.64   fps
Stats - Std. Dev   10.3   fps

7. CCI Mini Mag (new) 36 grain
Stats - Average   893.94   fps
Stats - Highest   922.85   fps
Stats - Lowest   849.04   fps
Stats - Ext. Spread   73.81   fps
Stats - Std. Dev   27.12   fps

8. CCI Stinger 32 grain
Stats - Average   837.16   fps
Stats - Highest   1021.28   fps
Stats - Lowest   707.75   fps
Stats - Ext. Spread   313.52   fps
Stats - Std. Dev   89   fps

From these numbers and the ones from the Speer Gold Dot - Short Barrel (http://naaminis.com/smf/index.php?topic=15168), you are better off using Speer Gold Dot - Short Barrel 22WMR.  They are a faster round than the 22LR rounds when tested out of a Pug and the Mini Mag and Stingers aren't 40 grain bullets.

[Uncle Fatso]

Interesting that the Aguila has the lowest SD.  I always thought of Aguila as inferior to CCI products.

[billmeek]

I just read my own post to look at the CCI numbers and realized I'm an idiot.  I've got thousands of rounds of it here, but didn't test with CCI Standard Velocity. 

[Dinadan]

Thanks for your efforts, Bill. I have always thought that Gold Dot was good stuff! It is no surprise that Gold Dot was best, though I would still like to see how a Velocitor would stack up. Was the old batch of CCI Mini Mag 36 grain or 40 grain?


Question: is the Federal Blue Box 40 grains? I note that it outperformed the Fiocchi 22 WMR out of the Pug, assuming that the bullet weights are the same.

[billmeek]

Everything except the CCI Mini Mag and CCI Stinger ammo was 40 grain.  I sorted them with the intention of changing the grain settings on the LabRadar for the last 3 boxes so the Power Factor and Kinetic Energy calculations would be correct.  Of course... I forgot.   

The old CCI Mini Mag box wasn't marked anywhere that I could find that's why I put a question mark on it.  My guess was going to be 36 grain... the same as the newer boxes of ammo.  Here's a picture of the ammo going from left to right.  Third from the right is the old CCI Mini Mag box. 

I checked a couple of local places and didn't find CCI Velocitors.   I'll keep an eye for them and test again if I locate them.

[miker]

Bill, thank you so much for spending the time to do this!

miker

[billmeek]

You're welcome miker.

I learned a couple of things too.  One of the most interesting was the standard deviation on the Aguila Super Extra - High Velocity.  If SD is that low, I want to test the Standard Velocity version in my rifle and see if it's nearly the same ranges.  The only problem is I believe the Standard Velocity is right on the border of the speed of sound and may be supersonic at times such as at lower temperatures.  I ordered a few bricks of it to test with anyway since Brownell's has it on sale.

While ordering Aguila I tried to get the Velocitor rounds... but they were sold out.

[Honky Tonk Man]

Yes, Bill thank you for collecting all this data for us.  I've been studying ballistics tables and charts since I was a kid.  It's really useful information for folks that rely on a Naa Mini and want to squeeze every bit of velocity and energy they can out of their guns. 

I too have been looking for Velocitor ammo too.  I found one box at a LGS so far.  I'm pretty sure it will become available soon.  I think it's currently hot, and the hoarders are still out there.