New Member Intro/question

[smokeless joe]

.

[pennsy]

Nice. Have fun breaking it in.

[jdiddy]

Put 5 rounds through it before leaving for work. All 5 on an 8/12x11 sheet of paper sized target  at about 5 yards. Probably about a 6-7 inch group. I am happy with that for my first 5 shots. I will get better with practice of course. I was using a shipping envelope with the packing bubbles. Some of the holes looked ragged and I am assuming it was just because of the medium, not keyholing.

[jdiddy]

Now you need a really beautiful pocket holster for your little cutie to lounge in until needed.

I have the folding grip, desantis pocket holster, and NAA clip holster on the way!

[billmeek]

Ragged shots on paper is normal.  If the holes are elongated then you have a keyholing problem.  This is an example posted by another forum member of their sidewinder keyholing:

[KEN AR]

Jdiddy,
Congrats on the new NAA.  I would have posted a photo of the J frame and a Black Widow except the J frame is at Rick's shop.

I figure if he can enable me on the NAA's at least I can tempt him with J frames!

Ken

[Honky Tonk Man]

Jdiddy,
Congrats on the new NAA.  I would have posted a photo of the J frame and a Black Widow except the J frame is at Rick's shop.

I figure if he can enable me on the NAA's at least I can tempt him with J frames!

Ken

Ken, Rick's working on a Sig P365 cross draw holster for me too.  It's a Christmas present for my kid brother.  Please remind him for me.  I'd hate for my little brother to wake up on Christmas to an empty stocking. 

[billmeek]

Rick's working on a Sig P365 cross draw holster for me too.

I do not need another holster... I do not need another holster... I do not need another holster... I do need another holster.  <sigh> The "Repetition principle" doesn't work so well for me.

[MR_22]

Hey y'all. This is my first post here so please forgive me if it breaks any of the rules.

Rules? We have rules? Why am I always the last to know! 

Welcome aboard. I'm sure you enjoy your stay here.

[Canoeal]

Only "rule" is try and be civil...That goes a long way...

[Boisesteve]

Bill, I'm not sure that keyholing is a problem with these little revolvers.  Oh yeah, it exists, but whether it is a problem or just something that happens is what I mean. If the bullet goes where aimed, I'm happy; if it doesn't, then it's an issue for me.
It might even be argued that bullet upset, if the bullet has arrived where it was supposed to, is a good thing on a defensive arm.
Stay warm, Steve in Boise

[billmeek]

Steve,

Keyholing is when you have an oversized barrel or an undersized bullet so that the proper spin from the rifling is not being conveyed to the fired bullet to stabilize it via spin.  If most any round fired keyholes, then it's more likely a barrel issue.  But if it's only a few types of ammo, it's more likely the ammo used and can be resolved by switching ammo.... or possibly modifying the keyholing ammo.  Of course keyholing affects accuracy. 

Where keyholing can be a problem on the NAA pistols is when you expect to achieve expansion on a hollow point round.  Will a keyholed bullet still cause damage?  Yes.  But is it as effective as a hollow point that expands?  And does a keyholed bullet have a lower BC causing drag in flight (albeit at very short range) that will slow down the bullet decreasing the energy it has to impart on the target? 

I know this sounds nit-picky, but when you already have a small bullet with limited energy like the 22 out of a short barrel, I'd prefer to get the best performance possible out of my ammo selection.

[Canoeal]

Well said Bill. However, sometimes the length of the barrel does not provide enough time in the barrel to produce proper spin. The shorter the barrel, the more likely an issue. Sometimes, in rifle rounds, the burning powder, still igniting as the bullet leaves the barrel, may also cause some deflection...Just some random issues.

[Boisesteve]

Yah I agree, well said Bill. And I've never noticed whether the  four NAA revolvers I own keyhole their impacts.
Yet, that old Beretta m21a I had sometimes keyholed its target impacts and at the same time that thing was unbelievably accurate.  I won bets with it, shooting empty 12ga hulls off of branch tips. For laughs I shot a qualifying score with it on the PD range day and it did fine all the way out to and including 25 yards. Yet some of its impacts keyholed.  I understand the ballistics of it and why it should not have had any accuracy at all and still there it was.  It was sold when life got simplified, not because of any fault.
This has turned into a very interesting and fun discussion, thanks!  Steve in Boise

[billmeek]

Steve,

I've seen keyholing out of some of the 22LR rounds I've tried out of the Pug.  To date, I've not seen any with the Speer Gold Dot - Short Barrel I use for carry ammo.  I am not saying it hasn't keyholed.  If it did I missed it which is possible. 

There's multiple degrees of accuracy depending on the shooter.  Let's be honest here, the Pug (or any NAA) is plenty accurate... I'm just not accurate when shooting them.  When shooting 22LR in my rifles, I expect a whole different level of accuracy and strive for beyond what most 22 shooters require for plinking or shooting small game.  Again, I'm not that great, but want to get the best out of my equipment without continually spending bucket-loads of money.  At 25 yards my rifle should shoot pretty much be one ragged hole... when I'm having a good day. 

From what little I know, even out of a 1 inch barrel from the Pug, an average 22 bullet still has enough energy to maintain a pretty flat trajectory out to 25 yards.  For example, a single round of CCI SV fired from the Pug was 827 fps at the barrel, 816 fps at 10 yards, 800 fps at 25 yards, 774 fps at 50 yards, 750 fps at 75 yards, and 724 at 100 yards.  Eeek!  You got me thinking on a tangent I want/don't want to follow! 

If a CCI SV fired from a 16.5 inch rifle is averaging 1071 fps at the barrel and 812 at 100 yards (a 259 fps difference) has roughly a 6.5 inch drop, then what drop will we see at 100 yards from a Pug that is averaging 795 fps at the barrel and 686 fps at 100 yards (a 109 fps difference)?  <grumble, grumble>  I may have to get a ballistic calculator involved.  <insert jeopardy final category music> So if I'm right, it's (very roughly) a drop of 13.8 inches from the CCI SV out of the Pug at 100 yards assuming a zero of 25 yards.  Slightly double the drop of the rifle.  I didn't think it'd do that well!

Here's a challenge for the shooters on the forum.  Test and see how close I am right.  Anybody willing to post up 100 yard silhouette targets with their NAA pistols of all calibers and barrel lengths?

[Boisesteve]

Bill, it just dawned on me how you got those 100 yard velocity readings out of an NAA: you've got that LabRadar, so you don't have to be shooting through a tiny chrono screen arch from a Pug barrel at 100 yards.
Just set 'er up at a known distance and be sure to not hit the device.  Nice!
PS: I understand bullet velocity measured in FPS, time-to-arrival-on-target measured in fractions of a second, and gravitational acceleration of objects of all sizes at the constant 32fps/s.  It all should be easy math... yet bullet drops still just seem like black magic to me, with long distance shooters the best magicians. 
Steve in Boise
   

[billmeek]

Steve,

With the LabRadar, you set it up beside the rifle /pistol making sure to aim the radar at the target you are shooting toward.  I normally aim at a 100 yard target, but have used a 50 yard paper target and the radar picked up the round well past the target.  Aiming the radar is a pain to where I often get it wrong and have to adjust.  Under normal operation it uses mics on either side of the device to know when to start looking for a bullet in the cone of doppler radar it projects.  It shouldn't, but on occasion does, pick up fire from other guns crossing the cone.  With 22LR rifles, it's a little more finicky about picking up the shot with subsonic ammo so I use the (optional) external microphone.  Even then I wasn't initially able to get it picking up 22LR until I changed the profile from rifle to pistol where it would expect slower speeds.  Now I have it picking up around 95% of the shots and another small percentage may have missing or questionable data.  I often use the SNR (signal to noise) data to decide what shots to ignore from the results.

You can use ballistic calculators with a regular chrono to calculate speeds at various distances.  It's just a lot more work.  One related item: The radar doesn't pickup bullet until (on average) around 6 yards.  So any FPS given at the barrel is extrapolated by the unit.

The one thing that I've really needed to get accuracy from the 22s has been BC (ballistic coefficient) of the bullets fired.  While there are some posted values, I've found that they are not correct and can change the ranging data.  In the rifles, I've fired 50 rounds of the ammo and used an online calculator to get the BC from each bullet, then averaged them (dumping any suspect results) to get a BC with a given bullet for a specific rifle.  For example, the BC between the Savage Mark II FV-SR and the B22 FV-SR are only .001 difference using CCI SV ammo.  The bullets have a consistent BC.  But when you compare the BC from CCI SV to Agulia SV both fired from the Mark II FV-SR you get a .016 difference.  Now I'm starting to test with modified bullets to see how it changes accuracy and BC.

Bullet drop is primarily based on energy, bullet weight, BC, wind, temperature, humidity, and even altitude. 

I was using the ballistic calculator 'Strelok Pro' with a Weatherflow external meter to gather the weather data.  It was frustrating getting them to work together consistently, so I went out and purchased the Kestrel 5700 ballistics weather meter which has the Applied Ballistics program within it.  I still have to connect to the phone briefly to get altitude, but it's much easier overall.  Once you put in the ammo and gun data, it handles all of the black magic for you. 

All of this is new (within the last 6 months) and interesting... to me.  Being able to apply it, at least on a limited scale, is fun.

[smokeless joe]

Ok this is way to techie for me. I just wanna hear it go bang.

[Uncle_Lee]

Ok this is way to techie for me. I just wanna hear it go bang.

Me too.

[billmeek]

Noted

[Rick_Jorgenson]

Jdiddy,
Congrats on the new NAA.  I would have posted a photo of the J frame and a Black Widow except the J frame is at Rick's shop.

I figure if he can enable me on the NAA's at least I can tempt him with J frames!

Ken

Ken, Rick's working on a Sig P365 cross draw holster for me too.  It's a Christmas present for my kid brother.  Please remind him for me.  I'd hate for my little brother to wake up on Christmas to an empty stocking. 

HT Man Don't worry..... It's in the works!

[Rick_Jorgenson]

Rick's working on a Sig P365 cross draw holster for me too.

I do not need another holster... I do not need another holster... I do not need another holster... I do need another holster.  <sigh> The "Repetition principle" doesn't work so well for me.

It looks like you may need me to send you photos of one of those Holsters 

You know.... just so you know that they are available 

Only a phone call away Bill..... 

(Sorry, no photo of the P-365 cross draw.... yet) 

[Honky Tonk Man]

Great news Rick.  If it looks anything like the Sig P938 holster, he'll be one happy 57 Y.O. kid on Christmas.  Sweet!

He's gonna' owe me big time!

[Boisesteve]

Bill, I agree that ballistics is fascinating.  I'm envious.  When I try to think that hard, my head hurts and blood comes out of my ears.

[OV-1D]

  Me too and just to think a spaceship travels 27,000 mph around the earth , go figure .

[Honky Tonk Man]

Bill, you have taken this hobby of ours to a whole new level.  I'm just glad that when the balloon goes up, you're on our side! 

[billmeek]

It looks like you may need me to send you photos of one of those Holsters 

You know.... just so you know that they are available 

Sitting here thinking about it, the only way a cross draw holster would be useful for me is if it came with an arm extension to help get around to the off-side. 

(Sorry, no photo of the P-365 cross draw.... yet) 

According to the forum standards, no photos... it didn't happen or in this case... doesn't exist. <grin>

[Canoeal]

Sitting here thinking about it, the only way a cross draw holster would be useful for me is if it came with an arm extension to help get around to the off-side. 

Me too Bill, short arms...

[smokeless joe]

Me too Bill, short arms...

[Canoeal]

I get the shortest size 38s I can find and they need to be taken up a couple of inches. Shirts too...19 inch neck in dress shirts custom made...If I had normal, 32 inch inseams, I would be six ft tall...Now... 5'6"...

[Deezil]

New to the party! I just got a 1-5/8" barrel one, not sure what to call it, it seems to be nameless, but I LOVE IT, its so fun! I just got a cheapo IWB holster to see how much I like it. Ill probably get a pocket holster in the future.    I made a video on mine, hope this is ok, check it out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEd3Yau5YYM&;

[Honky Tonk Man]

Welcome Deezil!  I watched your video.  Nice.  I know it's sometimes hard to see; but pretty sure your little gem is rifled.  I have never come across one that wasn't.  Try putting a tight patch on a cleaning rod and running it down the barrel.  Look for the rod to twist.  Capture a spent bullet and examine it.  Maybe shoot it into a water tank?  If you are positive it is not rifled, call NAA Customer Svc.  Guarantee they will help you.  Please let us all know what you find. 

[billmeek]

With the cylinder out, look down the barrel and you will see what look like strips down the length of the barrel.  Note that they have a very slight twist. Remember that the rifling in most 22LR is 1 (turn) in 16 (inches).  In your barrel I think that works out to roughly 10 percent of a turn over it's length.

[smokeless joe]

Welcome deezil. Thanks for the video.

[Uncle_Lee]

Welcome deezil,
Join the fun.
Post quick so you can get out of probation.