Magnum v LR SSS Black Wido

[Rapalyea]

I have done this test twice, with the same conclusion. The Aquilla 60gr SSS outperforms Winchester SuperX hollow point.

Just for the heck of it I tried it again. Stacked two 1 1/2 inch pine boards and fired at them. The Winchester SuperX HP punched a neat little hole through both and left a bit of nose sticking out the back.

The Long Rifle 60gr Aquilla put a nice small hole in the top of the first pine board. Then keyholed flat out the back with a spray of wood fiber. Then continued flat through the second pine board to reveal itself in full side profile out the back of the second board. Used my fingernail to pry it out. [both shots were through 3 inches of pine backed up by some oak. Neither got into the oak after leaving the pine.

So I am now carrying 60gr Aquilla Long Rifle. Would not mind other contrary results.

[Rapalyea]

The Agulla Long Rifel 60 gr is mounted in a .22 short case but is shot out of a .22 magnum cylinder in these guns. I measured it and that effectively increases barrel length by one inch. And more then that. The bullet is so long it blocks gas escape from the cylinder/barrel gap for that entire one inch of initial pressure.

I have read chronos from 600ft/sec to about 750 but shooting through pine it looks like an entirely different and way more powerful round then the Magnums I have tested.

[glenn]

I sure would like to see you go back & revise your recommendation to shoot 60gr Aguila LONG RIFLE rounds through a Magnum cylinder !

Maybe you MEANT to say   >That you shoot them out of a Long Rifle Cylinder that uses the same overall LENGTH of the magnum cylinder ?<

Just trying to keep everyone on the same page & shooting safely !

[cfsharry]

First order of business: Welcome To The Forum Rapalyea.
After reading your introductory post and then this, my first thought, like Glenn, was that you are shooting a BW with the LR cylinder. Shooting LR from a magnum cylinder is not recommended as the magnum case is not only longer but also wider.  This is a real safety issue.
As to the results you obtained in your test of the Winchester 40 gr vs the Aquilla 60 gr I've got to say I am suprised.  In tests done by 'Ballistics By The Inch' the 40 gr Winchester leaves a two inch barrel at 862 ft/sec producing 66ft/lbs of energy.  The  Aquilla 60 gr subsonic round leaves a two inch barrel at 663 ft/sec producing 58.6 ft/ lbs of energy.  From this one would assume the Winchester round to offer better penetration.  The fact that you say the Aquilla round is key-holing should create a situation whereby even less penetration would be the end result.  An interesting puzzlement.

[Dinadan]

Rapalyea - welcome to the forum!

I have also noted that when LR ammo is fired from a conversion Mini, the longer cylinder of the Magnum frame has the effect of giving the LR round more barrel length. The shorter the barrel the greater the percentage of the LR boost. I have not tried Aguila 60gr SSS out of a Black Widow. A couple of years ago I tested Aguila 60gr SSS out of Pug. Using a thick book as a test medium the SSS penetrated about 70% as deep as CCI 40gr MiniMags. The SSS expansion was good compared to just about any other LR or Mag round I have shot.

After reading your report I guess I need to try it again using my Black Widow and a magnum round as well.

Any photos?

[grayelky]

These results are interesting. It seems to go along with the heavy bullet folks vs lighter bullet folks. Also known as .45 vs 9 mm. Once you get the mass moving, it's mass tends to keep it moving and creates more damage. The 9 mm side of the argument prefers the lighter bullet moving at a higher velocity. The kink you introduced is both projectiles are the same diameter. I have used pine boards as a comparison media, but you have to remember there is little correlation between them and the human body. The soft tissue damage created by either bullet is a factor in the effectiveness of any round for self defense. If you are of the group that believes penetration is primary, then your tests and results hold a valid result for your purpose. I prefer to add an expansion medium, such as gallon milk jugs filled with water, and make a judgement call based on all of my tests. boxotruth.com (I think) is a good web site to help compare. You have touched on something I do not remember encountering before: Testing the same firearm with 2 different calibers. I believe you have added an interesting variable.

For what it is worth, while I agree your initial post needs to be clarified, I read it to mean you used a LR cylinder in your magnum gun.

[glenn]

The Agulla Long Rifel 60 gr is mounted in a .22 short case but is shot out of a .22 magnum cylinder in these guns. I measured it and that effectively increases barrel length by one inch. And more then that. The bullet is so long it blocks gas escape from the cylinder/barrel gap for that entire one inch of initial pressure.

I have read chronos from 600ft/sec to about 750 but shooting through pine it looks like an entirely different and way more powerful round then the Magnums I have tested.

Sorry Gray .... but I didn't read it that way.

[grayelky]

Glenn-
No argument about what it actually said. As I read it, my mind was giving him credit for what it was confident he meant. Like you and others, I hope he did not actually use a magnum cylinder to fire the LR ammo in for his tests.

[Rapalyea]

Yes. It is not possible to fire a LR out of the Magnum Cylinder. It is exactly right that I fired it out of a LR cylinder of the same length. Put me into the low velocity high mass camp versus the high velocity lower mass camp.  A few thoughts.

Fluid dynamics. If my understanding is correct, it takes four times as much power to move a given sized mass throuhg he same fluid medium at twice the speed. NASCAR anyone?  Thats why my boat can run 5 mph at idle, but requires 90 hp to run at 25 mph. Furthermore, penetration through a fluid medium has the same effect in reverse. A low mass projectile will hit the fluid medium and encounter four times as much resistence as a projectile of twice the mass but half the speed.

But I am not physicist. I just notice the 60gr Acqulla just makes mincemeat out of pine boards. However it is true the hollow point Magnum does not expand in wood. If it did expand I doubt it would make it through the first board.

So that leaves penetration.  I have always been curious about the "Goat Kill" test. All the Glazier Blues penetrated only about 6 inchces, but dispatched the goats very fast. So I split the difference. The .22 Aquilla bullet is about 5/8 inches long and both keyholes and tumbles to the same depth as an unexpanded 40 gr SuperX magnum.

I would be happy if someone with more technical skills then me would chrono both rounds and do a geletin test.  In practical terms, it is likey a small difference. But every time I look at the exit holes the 60 gr bullet looks WAY more bad ass.

[Goatpacker]

Yes. It is not possible to fire a LR out of the Magnum Cylinder. It is exactly right that I fired it out of a LR cylinder of the same length.

It is "Possible" just not "Advisable"!!!

[grayelky]

For those who are curious, I will offer an explanation in the hopes you WILL NOT try it:

Drop a LR round in a mag chamber and see how lose it is. This LR case will not expand enough to make a proper seal.

Yes, it is possible to fire LR ammo in a mag chamber. You will lose velocity. There is an excellent chance the side of the case will split. You will also very likely get gases blasted back to your face, as well as a chance of tiny pieces of brass and possibly bits of lead. If your life depends on it, it may be worth taking the chance, if you have no magnum ammo and no LR cylinder.

It is your eye sight, your face and your hand. I STRONGLY urge you to NOT try it.

[gunfitrip]

I have had it happen by accident in a Ruger single six.  Not advisable. 

[OV-1D]

Yes. It is not possible to fire a LR out of the Magnum Cylinder. It is exactly right that I fired it out of a LR cylinder of the same length.

It is "Possible" just not "Advisable"!!!

  It's also possible to ignite a rimfire by smashing it with a hammer DUHHHHHH!!!!! Anybody who makes those mistakes I have NO empathy for even by mistake . Simply KNOW WHAT THE HECK YOUR DOING or sell your weapons for everyones safety . Can we maybe bury this stupid subject , please and let the dummies bury their own . 

[boone123]

We use to take spent 22 shells and put a wooden match head ( farmmers match ) in the shell, pinch it shut, lay it on the anvil, and smash it with a hammer. Was like a firecracker...

[TwoGunJayne]

The Brits did something similar to the Aguila 60gr SSS concept with their military revolvers... they made the bullets longer and longer in hopes of keyholing whilst inside the target.

Supposedly, it helped.