Best SD ammo for a Magnum

[Jim1392]

Well I finally gave up my quest to find a Pug with the conversion cylinder after receiving an email back from Jessica at NAA.    So I pulled the trigger on the Pug magnum that should be in my LGS in a few days. I'll just have to make up my mind if it is that important to me to send it to NAA for the conversion cylinder. I did a search on the forum and most posts about best SD ammo are over a year old. So what would you actual owners suggest for a good SD ammo. I have been on YouTube and the opinions are all over the place.

[TwoGunJayne]

In .22 magnum I'd think it'd be Gold Dot jhp for a Pug. My chronograph tests for Critical Defense showed a sweet spot at 4-6" barrels. My mini master really liked those Critical Defense loads.

The Hornady V-Max and the CCI TNT jhp also showed well in the shorter barrels (sub 4".) My personal tests show the CCI TNT to expand from a 2" barrel. I haven't tested TNT in a 1," but it should be good.

In a Pug barrel, almost all .22 magnum rounds are very, very similar in performance. .22 lr in such a size is comparable to magnum for top loads only. There are many reduced power loads for .22 lr that should be avoided for SD. Anything that says "quiet," "reduced," "cap," "colibri," "subsonic," or "CB" should be avoided for SD carry.

The top .22 lr jhp choices for 1 inch to 2 inch barrels are the CCI Stinger and Velocitor, with velocitor seeming to have a slight edge over the Stinger in NAA mini revolvers.

...now what do I carry? .22 magnum CCI Maxi Mag (not +V!!) FMJ in a 2" barrel. Not jacketed hollowpoint. A non-expanding round. Why?

1. Many jhp rounds were solely designed for rifles and rifle barrel velocities and refuse to expand at mini velocities. The CCI Maxi Mag round was a consistent top performer in muzzle energy. Ballistics gel indicates that these rounds from, say a Black Widow, have a good chance to drill straight through and out of the other side on a frontal torso shot. There are many combinations of ammo and mini revolver that don't yield over 8 inches of penetration in gel. I, and many others, feel that this is inadequate penetration.

2. When your expanding round expands and increases the rate of energy transfer during penetration, nature balances its books. Penetration must decrease.

3. From NAA mini revolvers, if the round does not keyhole in midair then many rounds will tumble internally to the target and end their travel base first and the nose of the bullet pointed towards origin. The base of the bullet traveling forward through the target increases the rate of energy transfer all by itself. (See also: "bullet meplat.") Meplat means "point or tip," that's all. Some are flatter, some are pointier. The typical meplat of a .22 magnum is pretty small. This means it has better penetration and less energy transfer than a wide, flat meplat. Once the bullet enters the target and flips base-forward, the bullet acts as if it has "100% meplat." That is to say, it is presenting a flat face aginst the direction of travel and increases the rate of energy transfer.

4. For projectiles that are longer than they are wide, if they tumble internally to the target then they are presenting a larger surface area to resist the direction of travel. Energy transfer is at maximum when the bullet is sideways as the forward surface area is largest in that position. Energy transfer is greater when it travels base-first than upon initial penetration where the presented surface is the relatively small meplat of the nose of the bullet initially. This helps the round get through the relatively tough skin and increases the chance of breaking through something like a rib or sternum.

Everything is a balancing act. Ammo selection is very highly dependent upon that gray thing in between your ears. There are different thoughts and strategies, and there is something to most of them.

I like tumbling FMJ for SD in .22 magnum from a 2" barrel. The math works for me. 4" is better, but there are comprimises for carry ability.

According to many sources (including Federal Law Enforcement,) situational awareness and proper presentation of the firearm is the primary cause of ending a confrontation. Statistically, rounds are not fired to end most confrontations. Additionally, the effectiveness of any handgun (almost regardless of size) is the number, rapidity, and quality of "good enough" hits to the torso; it's what make it work. The charts that try to show stats on multiple hits all seem to run together above 4 hits.

I will never suggest that you try for "one shot stop" in a self defense situation. Save a round or two for the BG's buddy or draw another mini. Statistically, a cylinder dump from any NAA mini with proper ammo will take the fight out of the opponent and end the encounter in under 2 minutes from "bang." Better aim and more precise targeting lowers this critical time window to 15 seconds or less.

Forget Marshal and Sanow's "one shot stop" myth. You don't want 1 shot. You want 2 hits and you want them settling in before the BG can align his sights and fire. First, fast, and NOW.

An instant drop with an NAA mini revolver will only happen under two conditions:
1. The assailant 100% reverses course, loses his "aggressive qualities," gives up, or whatever you want to call it. Psychologically, the assailant "self-eliminates" from the fight for whatever reason.
2. A central nervous system shock that disables gross motor ability. Note that it might even be temporary-ish and non-fatal (possibly.)

Without your properly firing nerves, you cannot make your muscles work for you. It doesn't even take a brain hit. There are a few points on the leg (for example) that can disable the entire leg with something similar to just an icepick stab. I'm not suggesting you aim for the leg, just pointing out that the systems of the body must be disrupted to win a fight. If you don't know what and where they are, how can you target and disrupt them?

Summary: The most effective SD ammo for the Pug is "cylinder dump to center mass before the assailant connects with his attack."

[Dinadan]

Jim - I like Gold Dots. But CCI Maxi Mag is good too. I think that reliability trumps velocity or expansion if you are using a Pug for SD. I have found CCI and Gold Dots to be reliable. Just between us NAA lovers: based on tests I have done, you are not going to get any expansion out of any Magnum round with your Pug unless you fire it into something solid like a board or a book at a distance of less than ten feet, and probably not then. So HP, FMJ, is irrelevant for us Pug users. My opinion only, and if others have a different experience, please punch holes in my statement.

Regarding the LR cylinder, I suggest picking up a standard Magnum Mini conversion to play around with. I almost always shoot LR or shorts, especially since Magnums got so hard to find. After a couple of cylinders of Maxi Mags out of a Pug, you will enjoy a couple of cylinders of shorts!

[Shovel-ready project]

In .22 magnum...

Very clear, insightful presentation. Thank you, from someone who still has a ton to learn.

[Goatpacker]

Guess it depends on what you are defending yourself against? For me and 2 legged critters or bigger 4 legged it would be Gold Dots. For critters with no legs or the smaller 4 legged ones it would be 2 CCI shotshells followed by 3 Maxi Mag +V HP's. Yes I carry 2 minis every day.

[I]

I'm a fan of the .22 magnum and .22 lr shotshells from an NAA mini for special purposes. Primarily, I swat pests with them and squash snake heads.

It's a "backup mini" that has a round or two of the shotshells on tap for me.

An old gunhead from the service said to me that I need to look at it as far as the baseline energy of what the cartridge can do. You can't push it much past that without lots of problems. If the base line can't do it, perhaps you need more club?

That said, .22 rimfire is consistently a top 3 2-legger killer. Historically, it is tied with .25 acp and 12 gauge as far as numbers.

.25 acp is a very strange cartridge. Barely represented in ammo production or pistols shipped yearly, it consistently shows in the top cartridges actually used.

Strange, don't you think? NAA has a secret weapon bottleneck .25 cartridge that trumps the .25 acp. Sounds like one of those "best kept secrets."

Some think the .25 NAA trumps what the .22 magnum can do.

[MR_22]

I'm another fan of the .22 Magnum Gold Dots. When I carry a .22 mini, that's what I carry.

[Javier C.]

My usage of .22 magnums is omnivorous.  I'll shoot whatever I can get my hands on in some quantity to keep from running out.  A firearm without ammo is a nice paperweight or topic of conversation, but as useful as teats on a bull.

[cwlongshot]

I also prefer Gold dots as my defensive ammo for all AC
Calibers the lil Maggie is no difference.

BUT. Hornady critical defense shoots very well and has a heavier bullet like the old GDs did. I like that.

I have shot the Winchester PDX1 ammo and my ruger single nine likes it allot.

IMHO You will not go wrong with any of these.

CW

[TwoGunJayne]

Jim - I like Gold Dots. But CCI Maxi Mag is good too. I think that reliability trumps velocity or expansion if you are using a Pug for SD. I have found CCI and Gold Dots to be reliable. Just between us NAA lovers: based on tests I have done, you are not going to get any expansion out of any Magnum round with your Pug unless you fire it into something solid like a board or a book at a distance of less than ten feet, and probably not then. So HP, FMJ, is irrelevant for us Pug users. My opinion only, and if others have a different experience, please punch holes in my statement.

Regarding the LR cylinder, I suggest picking up a standard Magnum Mini conversion to play around with. I almost always shoot LR or shorts, especially since Magnums got so hard to find. After a couple of cylinders of Maxi Mags out of a Pug, you will enjoy a couple of cylinders of shorts!

I agree with the expansion situation versus a 1 inch barrel. It might smush the nose of the bullet up a little, but greater than caliber expansion is unlikely.

With a standard mini or Black Widow conversion, you begin to get access to ammo choices that offer expansion. Interestingly, a CCI Stinger from a Mini Master has more zap than .22 mags from a Black Widow. Having a longer barrel certainly increases the muzzle energy on tap and begins to get you into the realm of expansion. That is not to say that the Pug can't be effective, but it is more about using it effectively. More energy is great and all, but rounds on target promptly is the next big piece once you get the ammo situation straightened out.

Some might inquire about "segmented shot" or "split shot," such as the CCI Quik-Shok prefragmented round. They are loaded like the CCI Stinger round and perform identically as far as external ballistics. These might fragment, they might not from a 1 inch barrel. What they will do, however, is comprimise your pentration dramatically if they do fragment. You'd have to hit them in the neck or something, and that's a little much to ask if you're doing the "SD Dance." (We can dance if we want to...) The reason I mention the Quik-Shok is they are a handy comparison tool to the Stinger round as the difference is one is pre-fragged and the other deforms and tries to "pancake" if it's got enough impact velocity. The Quik-Shok takes expansion and compromise of penetration to an extreme. The Stinger tries to demonstrate controlled expansion, recovered gel slugs from a rifle look quite pretty... a perfect little pancake. From a pistol, the Stingers tend to "half unfold" and this is a good thing so as not to eliminate penetration. Stingers don't really "pancake" from most pistols anyway.

You can hit the search engines up for some pretty ballistics gel pictures of Stingers versus Quik-Shok from mouseguns. It helps to get the mind wrapped around the concepts of the levels of energy involved and understand the extremes of the equation. "What if there is fragmentation, what if not? What if there is no expansion, what then?" These seem the 3 main points of concern, and they tend to happen at different energy levels. The Pug is a very extreme example. There's not many 1" barrels out there to compare with, but most of the bullets will act like FMJ anyway.

I mention this because .22 lr top loads are small percentage points within most .22 mag loads from a 1 inch barrel. Mag doesn't really start asserting its dominance until 2-3 inches of barrel. In a Pug, it doesn't matter what ammo you use as long as it isn't a reduced loading. There are basically no reduced magnum loads to my knowledge. Magnum Pug means ammo choice is a no-brainer. LR Pug means you need to pay attention to what you slip in there for carry and burn the rest up.

.22 lr Pug is fine, too. Just sayin' 

In .22 magnum...

Very clear, insightful presentation. Thank you, from someone who still has a ton to learn.

Anytime, sir. Glad to be here. Let's talk about some guns! 

[RogueTS1]

I will take Hornady Critical Defense in .22 mag. I would not turn away the same in Gold Dots but I have not found any so I soldier on with the Hornady. If that is or was not available then I turn to CCI's polymer tipped varmint round.

[1943]

I noticed cwlongshot mentioned the Winchester PDX1 and his Ruger liked it.  Has anybody played with this round in their Pug or Sidewinder of course with the magnum cylinder.  It gives the 40 grain ball @ 1295 fps and if I remember right (probably don't) that was pretty close to the readings from a 1 inch barrel.  I am carrying this round in both of my NAAs ( Pug and Sidewinder ) but due to some illness's I have been fighting I have not been able to get to the range, plus my chronograph has been residing at a friends??? house for several years.  Need to get it back also.  Anyway if anybody has tried this round out would it be possible to give us your readings and information on how it performed.  Thanks  Dave

[cwlongshot]

Two gun,

Your comparison is a 40+g slug at "X" velocity compared to a 32g slug at "Y". Sure it's faster (a bit). But it's almost 25% lighter! Look at the bullets foot pounds of energy it's producing and something not seen is momentum. That heaver bullet simply has more. It's a long time argument but I choose weight over speed. Kinda like torque over horsepower. Or the only annaelogy that you drive for show and putt for dough.

I do like the segmented design but I'll still take a Maggie ten times outta nine.

As for a lower velocity "magnum" try a Winchester 45g  Dyna Point Or a WRF round by either Winchester or CCI. I prefer the Winchester as it's plated not jacketed like the CCI.

CW

[TwoGunJayne]

I agree with momentum. Without it, sure the bullet gets up to speed... then stops just as quickly.

I was not advocating the Quik Shok round, quite the opposite. It shows what low mass (and momentum) of fragments with high surface area will do in ballistics gel... that is to say "they stop quickly." What you see when you look at ballistics gel test of the Quik Shok round is pretty much the OPPOSITE of what I want in an SD round.

It runs on the same fuel as the Stinger, which is a good round. In NAA minis, the Velocitor is better from the stats I've seen. I wouldn't have thought it would beat the Stinger in energy, it was a surprise to me. It turns out CCI got the heavier bullet up to speed just fine. Heavier bullets get through bone better.

You raise a good point about considering the bullet weight. I hated the Hornady Critical Defense round at first, until I realized that it's a fairly heavy grain bullet (45 grain if I recall clearly.) I feel it beats the 50 grain Federal magnum JHP from a short barrel. That 50 grainer just didn't light my fire. I don't know why.

I, too, prefer magnum for SD carry. I like how it is louder. If they made a .22 mag round with "enhanced flash and report," I'd give it a try.

On another note, I have yet to locate any Winchester PDX .22 magnum to test. The previous "hot stuff" mag round from Winchester, the "Supreme" was okay in energy, but wouldn't expand for love nor money. Rifle round. Too bad.

I hope that the PDX series in magnum actually works properly in handguns this time. Win Supreme was a glorified FMJ even from a 2" barrel. I'll chrono and test it if I can find some. .22 mag ammo is like gold right now.

[1943]

http://beckertactical.blogspot.com/2013/05/22-magnum-ammo-tests.html

Ok found this and it seems to have some really good information on the Pug and the available SD ammo.  It ranks the Speer Gold Dots as the number one overall load for the short barrel magnum handgun at the time.  Very good reading. 

[TwoGunJayne]

http://beckertactical.blogspot.com/2013/05/22-magnum-ammo-tests.html

Ok found this and it seems to have some really good information on the Pug and the available SD ammo.  It ranks the Speer Gold Dots as the number one overall load for the short barrel magnum handgun at the time.  Very good reading.

Well written article!

Here's the table from that link, but the link is worth reading.

60 to 80-ish foot pounds from a 1 inch Pug. The numbers can only go up from there!

The next piece of the puzzle is "what do these rounds do on gel impact?"

Stopping power does not exist by muzzle energy alone. Some say it doesn't exist at all. It's hard to say.

[OV-1D]

Not to get off subject but I have a question for you , do you have a job ? Do you have a camera ? What exactly was or is your type of expertise ? Please post pictures of your weapon groups , thanks . Your pictures and not transferred or copied items , great .

[TwoGunJayne]

Job? Yes. I help people with certain antique machinery. I just like to check in here because I seem to think about mouseguns, NAA minis, and ballistics all the time. Can't help it, I guess I'm stuck.

I have a camera. I'll post weapons pics, I guess. The camera and the weapon groups are not in the same place right now.

Mind if I ask why? Anything in particular? Want me to put a playing card or random object in the picture?

I try to walk the walk as well, sir. 

[OV-1D]

 Just trying to put together a mental picture of ya because your info always seems to be somewhat overkill and a little too precise as if your copying it from a script . Mind you I'm a stickler for precision BUT ! Your a little annoying being everywhere I guess but that's just me . I believe in short and sweet instead of long drawn out processes that's why we love pictures on this forum it seems that rules out and over long windedness in most cases .      PICTURES RULE .

[TwoGunJayne]

Ever heard of the "Turing Test?"

It's where people try to guess if they are talking to a computer or not. Psychology and Computer Science departments of universities get together for this stuff.

I was told I'm a computer.  Oh well...

I'll try to keep it concise. Thanks for the constructive feedback.

[Taxi]

I'm not actually Britney, incase there's any confusion, out of interest.

[Jim1392]

Ever heard of the "Turing Test?"

It's where people try to guess if they are talking to a computer or not. Psychology and Computer Science departments of universities get together for this stuff.

I was told I'm a computer.  Oh well...

I'll try to keep it concise. Thanks for the constructive feedback.

For whats it's worth (not much I'm sure) I enjoy reading your in depth posts. For a new person like me who just purchased their first NAA it's interesting reading. Just my two cents.

[cwlongshot]

http://beckertactical.blogspot.com/2013/05/22-magnum-ammo-tests.html

Ok found this and it seems to have some really good information on the Pug and the available SD ammo.  It ranks the Speer Gold Dots as the number one overall load for the short barrel magnum handgun at the time.  Very good reading.

Well written article!

Here's the table from that link, but the link is worth reading.

60 to 80-ish foot pounds from a 1 inch Pug. The numbers can only go up from there!

The next piece of the puzzle is "what do these rounds do on gel impact?"

Stopping power does not exist by muzzle energy alone. Some say it doesn't exist at all. It's hard to say.

MUCH has been written on the subject. I agree there is MUCH more to it than just numbers. We ALL should know that for every action there is a equal and opposite RE action.  So in the movies when a guy is blown thru a window or wall its ALL HOLLYWOOD as IF it did that, the shooter would be blown backwards to the same degree...

I have liked the Taylor theory myself..

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2012/12/measuring-effectiveness-of-cartridges_19.html

But then there is the Thorniley theory...

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2012/12/measuring-effectiveness-of-cartridges_22.html

This last one I haven't read, The Hatcher Formula.

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2012/12/measuring-effectiveness-of-cartridges_28.html...

Most are based in hunting scenarios, but still apply to "other" targets.

Lastly is a place I feel the 22mag resides, its one of those calibers that its paper ballistics just DONT do it justice. It simply works all out of proportion to what one might read in a book. You simply need to use it in the field to see what it can actually do.

I have read many a story where hunters in Arizona simply LOVE the lil magnum for peccary, bristle pigs, or other wise known as Javalina. A simple Google search on the subject will prove this out quickly.


Western hunters have learned that the 22Mag makes very short and effective work for Cougars that have been treed. Again simply Google it to see.

Turkey hunters who are allowed to use a rifle, know all to well its effectiveness on gobblers!

Some states even specifically name it as ALLOWED for LARGE GAME!!! Maine specifically names it as OK, Mississippi doesn't care, No. Carolina either and Vermont has no regulations... http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/minimum-legal-calibers-for-big-game-hunting.130541/

CW

[TwoGunJayne]

Thanks for posting that. This is the stuff I like to read.

[from Wikipedia talk section] Consider, an Olympic shot put weighs 16 lbs., is about 4.8 inches in diameter, is made of steel, and leaves a world class throw with about 15.9 meters per second initial velocity. After conversions this is a TKO in excess of 3500. Note there is no engineering unit for this dim bulb formula because it means nothing. The shot has an initial kinetic energy of about 915 Joules, about the muzzle energy of a 125 grain .357 magnum.

An elephant rifle chambered for the caliber .458 Lott cartridge launches a jacketed 500 grain lead bullet at about 2300 feet per second. This is a TKO of 75. The initial kinetic energy is about 7980 Joules.

Which do you suppose will drop a charging bull elephant more effectively: an Olympic shot putter or a guy with an elephant rifle? John Taylor's formula says its the shot putter by a factor of over 40 times.

Here's my counter-punch.

I've seen people try this tactic comparing "worthless" 9mm to a baseball fast pitch. What they leave out is that a professional highly-trained punch is about the same energy as that fastball and that 9mm. That punch can kill with a hit to the right spot. So can a fastball, and so can a 9mm. The energy level is similar, but penetration and momentum are different.

I think the shot putter might pull it off. Some slaughterhouses kill cows with a sledgehammer. So implausible? A wrecking ball doesn't move that fast, but concrete doesn't stand a real chance. The shot put in the example has "very huge momentum," compared to even a "big" rifle bullet. A train going 35 miles per hour defeats a 180 mph sports car stuck in the crossing every single time.

I'm not sure that Taylor, Thorniley, and Hatcher are wrong. People love their controversy.

Side note: Thanks for the compliment Jim. Have a blessed day.

[NOTL21]

You always make me think TwoGunJayne...never a bad thing!

[cfsharry]

Jim,
The problem with guys like 2GJ is that they speak so often and with such authority that guys new to shooting often mistake their verbosity for knowledge. That is not to say that knowledge is totally lacking, just that, like a blind chicken, you have to work hard to find the occasional kernel of truth.
CW,
Do not become overly enamored with the .22 WMR.  It is a fine cartridge for it's intended purpose but the bottom line is that it produces less energy than a .380.  For critters larger and/or tougher to kill than coyotes it would be, in my opinion, an inadequate round to hunt with.

[OV-1D]

 I think Harry would also like to include that to get the full potential of the 22WMR it needs to shot from a rifle for which it was designed not mini revolvers . Just my two cents .

[Dinadan]

Not to get off subject but I have a question for you , do you have a job ? Do you have a camera ? What exactly was or is your type of expertise ? Please post pictures of your weapon groups , thanks . Your pictures and not transferred or copied items , great .

Good question. I have wondered why a person who presents himself as a risk taker (e.g. - Crushes black powder, runs with scissors) seems almost hysterical at the idea about any risk. Been wondering that for a while.

[OV-1D]

Age becomes a question to me .

[cwlongshot]

I think Harry would also like to include that to get the full potential of the 22WMR it needs to shot from a rifle for which it was designed not mini revolvers . Just my two cents .

Absolutely, YES. First and foremost it is a rifle round.

This new ammo for mini revolvers is a lot of lower flash faster powder. Works a lot better in lowering flash and lil better in velocity. Overall its better ammo from a consistency and accuracy stand point.

CW,
Do not become overly enamored with the .22 WMR.  It is a fine cartridge for it's intended purpose but the bottom line is that it produces less energy than a .380.  For critters larger and/or tougher to kill than coyotes it would be, in my opinion, an inadequate round to hunt with.

Too late my friend, I have had a "afire" with this caliber for going on thirty years now.   I know pretty well its and my own limitations.

CW

[Kentucky Kevin]

always going to be haters

[Goatpacker]

All ammo has its limitations, from the smallest to the largest, and all shooters have their limitations as well. It is the job of the one behind the trigger to know the limitations of both and how they relate to put a value on their effectiveness. An ineffective round for one may be very effective for another as a round that may seem to be overkill for some would be totally worthless in the hands of another.

One mans "elephant gun" could very well be another's "pea shooter"!

[TwoGunJayne]

Not to get off subject but I have a question for you , do you have a job ? Do you have a camera ? What exactly was or is your type of expertise ? Please post pictures of your weapon groups , thanks . Your pictures and not transferred or copied items , great .

Good question. I have wondered why a person who presents himself as a risk taker (e.g. - Crushes black powder, runs with scissors) seems almost hysterical at the idea about any risk. Been wondering that for a while.

The scissors are on a swiss army knife, closed, in a pocket. Crushing black powder is safe if you follow safe procedures.

I feel that I get hurt less if I know what rules I'm breaking and why. I do take risks, as do we all each morning we walk out the door. Know the risks to mitigate them, it's when you get blindsided that's the problem. You might call it "learning to break the rules properly."

The problem with guys like 2GJ is that they speak so often and with such authority that guys new to shooting often mistake their verbosity for knowledge. That is not to say that knowledge is totally lacking, just that, like a blind chicken, you have to work hard to find the occasional kernel of truth.

Some learn by attempting to state what they think they know. If I've said something flat-out wrong, it wouldn't be long with the knowledge level here. Note what shots people take at me, it doesn't seem to be about what I said... more of an ad hominem approach.

always going to be haters

Quite, sir.

Anyway, I like the talk above about .22 magnum and rifles. I also like the concept of what the pistol can do. Strangely, it seems to have stats above the energy level. I do agree that .22 magnum and lr from a handgun are more effective than energy numbers indicate.

[cfsharry]

CW,
My apologies.  As you were coming across all giddy-like and seemed overly impressed with the killing abilities of the .22WMR I figured you to be new to shooting and probably without practical experience.  Too many without experience in the field are unduly influenced by the often misleading information available online. Am glad to hear you are not one of them.
H,
If you consider my statement regarding 2GJ to be hate I would suggest you rush to your nearest dictionary, look up the word and try to understand it.

[Kentucky Kevin]

what is is