Type of Bullet/thoughts on self defense

[gunfitrip]

I know this might stir the pot some and make things interesting around here for a while.  Many ask if a .22 LR or Mag is a good self defense round.  A shooting buddy and I have discussed the legal issues involved in a valid self-defense situation.  You get all kinds of comments about bullet types, flesh damage, etc.  You may want to be careful commenting on such issues.  Theysayimnotme on the thread "effective range of a .22 for self defense" thread spoke of being a juror on a murder trial and the plentiful talk by the prosecution of the type of bullet utilized by the defendant.  I believe that there may come the time when a prosecutor in an otherwise totally justified self defense scenario may be able to raise issues of "intent" of the defendant in a criminal trial where self-defense is raised.  What is the intent of a person that carries a round that is "guaranteed to incapacitate or cause maximum tissue damage"? Comments were also made on that same thread where some people think you "are not a real man" if you don't carry a .44 or better gun loaded with the maximum round.  Lord willing I will NEVER have to use a weapon to defend my life or an innocent third party. But if it ever did happen my intent would be to stop the aggression with the least amount of force used to do that.  A .22 is generally what I carry as that is my preference.  It is a reliable round as proved by the length of time in continuous use.  Another thing that all persons on the internet should be careful about are statements made on the internet.  They never go away, and you can bet that a prosecutor may want to check all past statements made by an individual on the internet to "see" into the person's mind-set.  Hyperbolic statements about what one might do if faced with a self-defense situation may come back to haunt one. 

[cfsharry]

In my opinion, if you feel a need to carry and then make a decision on what to carry based upon what cartridge will inflict the least damage upon an aggressor, for whatever reason, you should not carry as you are not mentally ready.

[redhawk4]

My opinion is you buy and carry the ammo you consider to be the best for your particular gun that is specifically marketed for self defense. That way I don't see there is a debate, I have the gun for self defense, I'm not an expert, but I considered it wise to follow the advise of (insert the manufacturers name) who are experts.

Rolling your own loads etc. I believe could all be misconstrued if you are unfortunate enough to  live in a "lefty state" where you have to justify to the nth degree, why there could have been any legitimate reason for shooting the armed guy who was raping and killing your wife when you got home.  After all you had a privileged upbringing because you had two parents etc. he didn't, he never had a chance - and then you murdered him.

If you use SD ammo from a reputable manufacturer, every attempt to  twist your motivation and ammo  can be deflected back to the manufacturer with "I don't know, I'm not an expert" and "I just went by what it said on the packet"

Just my 2 cents, but if I had to endure a biased cross examination, I'd prefer to be coming from that angle.

If you are only carrying a 22 then I feel all of this is less likely to be an issue as you would already be seen to be using a small and less powerful caliber as opposed to someone with a 44 mag or something.

[stantheman86]

I'm not worried about Internet posts being used against me, I don't talk about anything other than facts plus they can't find what I don't tell them.

They can't search all of the 10's of thousands of internet gun forums looking for my profile because of a defensive shooting. I already fit the FBI profile as a homeland terrorist as a white male Army Infantry veteran with a combat deployment , in my early 30's with an interest in firearms......so what else can they dig up on me:)

With a .22 no one can accuse you of using too much gun, with a Mini you are a citizen who used a purely defensive weapon in a minimum power caliber , just enough needed to "stop" a threat for fear of the lives of yourself and family.  The same can be said for the .38's, .380's and 9mm's I carry.

I would not recommend being one of those guys who carries a 12 gauge under a trench coat, a .500 S&W or a Glock with 10 spare mags......you're an armed citizen not a vigilante street soldier. I would not want to explain in court why I needed a .500 S&W to go to WalMart.

[redhawk4]

I agree on the big calibers that would be seen as really excessive, carrying something in an "accepted" self defense caliber would again help justification, possibly something along the lines of what the police carry. I carry a 44 mag quite often, but that's when I'm working or recreating in the back country where there are bears and cougars etc. to consider. When doing that if I was unfortunate enough to have to use it in an SD situation, my reasoning would have to be, this is why I had this gun with me and as it was the only one I had I had no choice but to use it. Pretty similar to how it would be if you had to use your hunting rifle because that's what you had with you on a hunting trip.

[bigdave74]

A lot of good advice here, read and think, over the years I have found many brains are better than one brain on topics like this.  My advice is to practice, as much as you can.  You will have a lot of fun and in the 1 in a million chance you must use your mini for self defense then you will be more ready.

[redhawk4]

Practice is important because it makes you better, faster and more accurate, but in my mind the most important factor is the confidence it will give you if that one in a million thing goes down.

[gunfitrip]

Great discussion. I personally think a .22 either LR or Mag are great all purpose rounds.  I generally carry my BW with a mag cylinder. I keep the LR cylinder with me to practice with.  I've carried other guns, but seem to always come back to NAA products for portability, concealment, reliability, and effectiveness. I don't work for NAA and am not a paid advertiser.

[stantheman86]

.22 Mag is a pretty potent little round, its kind of like a mini .30 Carbine.

It penetrates similar to .32 Auto out of shorter barrels, out of 1"-2" I think it loses a LOT of punch and its debatable as to whether a .22 Mag out of a mini is that much more effective than a .22 LR Stinger or Velocitor out of the same barrel.  Kind of like .357 out of a snub barrel, a lot of the powder blows out unburned. Some people think the muzzle flash of a snub .357 or .22 Mag = power, but its just wasted powder burning outside the barrel.

If you watch the YouTube videos on Stinger and Velocitor gelatin penetration, the results are pretty impressive.

I would like to get a Pug and get a .22 LR cylinder fitted , and just carry it in that configuration.

I don't know if NAA still does semi custom stuff, I had wanted a Pug marked for .22 LR with a LR Black Widow cylinder fitted.

[Goatpacker]

I will carry "Whatever I feel that I can and that will do the job" to protect myself and my loved ones from any "critter or Bad Guy" at any time such an unfortunate thing may happen!!! I strive to live through the "situation" today so that I might live to face the "situation" tomorrow!!! If you was to get killed today then you can't worry about tomorrow!!! If anyone is looking at this then my only intent today is to protect myself and my loved ones, and I set out to do no one any harm today!!! If the unfortunate "situation" happens then it is because someone set out to do harm to me or my loved ones!!!

[stantheman86]

A lot of people on other forums say that my .22 LR mini should only be a "3rd gun" or a backup to a backup, or a backup at best only if you're wearing light clothes.

I have often carried my LR mini as a primary, it carries so easily in a pocket.

I do wish they made a LR mini with a Magnum grip frame, to keep the size down but actually give you a usable grip.

The Pug is high on my needs list, it has usable sights and a potent chambering. If there's little to no gain in velocity over LR at least WMR rounds are made in defensive loadings like Gold Dot or Critical Defense short barrel to make the rounds more reliable. Then I might use my LR as a backup to the Pug:)

[cfsharry]

The .22, in any flavor, is a good defensive round only if one is constrained from having something better. If one were able to easily carry either a .22 or a small 380 and chose the .22 I would think that person intellectually deficient. The only reason to carry a mini, as a defensive weapon, is because a more capable gun is too large to conceal.
By the way, for those that don't understand the concept of using a cartridge that will "incapacitate or cause excessive tissue damage" it is to end a threat, as quickly and efficiently as possible. It is to increase the likelyhood that you will survive the encounter and not wind up as just another statistic. If that bothers you then reconsider if you should be carrying in the first place.

[theysayimnotme]

I consider it good advice to think about what you post. I see far too many posts that give the impression that the poster is salivating over the prospect of being able to take out a "bad guy". They also often leave little doubt about who they think those "bad guys" are. There is a very good chance they will get ahold of your computer & find your posts.
Think of what it would have meant if those types of statements had been entered into the Zimmerman  trial.

[redhawk4]

I consider it good advice to think about what you post. I see far to many posts that give the impression that the poster is salivating over the prospect of being able to take out a "bad guy". They also often leave little doubt about who they think those "bad guys" are. There is a very good chance they will get ahold of your computer & find your posts.
Think of what it would have meant if those types of statements had been entered into the Zimmerman  trial.

Are you meaning on this forum or in general?

[cfsharry]

I would think he means in general.  He is right.

[Goatpacker]

On the question of the topic, What type of bullet!!! I carry 3 NAA's and all 3 are loaded differently for different situations!!! Widow with 5 gold dots, 1 5/8" mag with 2 shotshells first and 3 Maxi-Mag JHP+V's next, and a shorty with 5 JHP shorts!!! Each little gun is loaded for the different senerios that I may run across in my daily life!!! The widow and the mag are carried on my belt and the shorty in the pocket!!! When I go into town the Widow goes into my front pocket and the mag goes into my boot!!!

[G50AE]

In my opinion, if you feel a need to carry and then make a decision on what to carry based upon what cartridge will inflict the least damage upon an aggressor, for whatever reason, you should not carry as you are not mentally ready.

I completely agree with cfsharry's statement.  I am also glad he said it first and not me, because if I would have said that, then certain people like heyjoe and boone123 would jump up and down and accuse me of flaming the OP, when in fact I would only be calling things as I see them.

[G50AE]

Rolling your own loads etc. I believe could all be misconstrued if you are unfortunate enough to  live in a "lefty state" where you have to justify to the nth degree, why there could have been any legitimate reason for shooting the armed guy who was raping and killing your wife when you got home.  After all you had a privileged upbringing because you had two parents etc. he didn't, he never had a chance - and then you murdered him.

I agree with your post redhawk4.  And I want to add a few points related to it.  Hand loads are a bad idea for several reasons.  The first one being the issue that you mentioned.

The other issue(s) being that of forensic investigation, or gunshot residue.  Factory ammo will produce a reasonably repeatable gunshot residue when fired from a particular firearm. (In my case most likely a Glock.) If the prosecution wants to dispute the facts of a shooting, you need evidence to refute their claims and gunshot residue can be one of these paths.  If factory ammo was used, your attorney can go to the manufacturer and get the same ammo for evidence testing purposes.  Hand loads do not allow this option.  You cannot, just load more ammo using your reloading data and use that because you are literally making your own evidence, and what juror is going to buy that?  By using hand loads you are crippling you legal defense for little if any gain.  Factory ammo will do just fine, little is gained from hand loads.

[G50AE]

Practice is important because it makes you better, faster and more accurate, but in my mind the most important factor is the confidence it will give you if that one in a million thing goes down.

Work it,
Make it,
Do it,
Makes us,

Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger.

[heyjoe]

In my opinion, if you feel a need to carry and then make a decision on what to carry based upon what cartridge will inflict the least damage upon an aggressor, for whatever reason, you should not carry as you are not mentally ready.

I completely agree with cfsharry's statement.  I am also glad he said it first and not me, because if I would have said that, then certain people like heyjoe and boone123 would jump up and down and accuse me of flaming the OP, when in fact I would only be calling things as I see them.

now was this really necessary since neither of us has said anything to or about you since you came back?

[G50AE]

In my opinion, if you feel a need to carry and then make a decision on what to carry based upon what cartridge will inflict the least damage upon an aggressor, for whatever reason, you should not carry as you are not mentally ready.

I completely agree with cfsharry's statement.  I am also glad he said it first and not me, because if I would have said that, then certain people like heyjoe and boone123 would jump up and down and accuse me of flaming the OP, when in fact I would only be calling things as I see them.

now was this really necessary since neither of us has said anything to or about you since you came back?

I will concede that you have not said anything about me since my return from Pennsylvania.  However you are incorrect in so much as that boone123 for whatever reason decided to make some sort of disparaging remark on another thread that was completely unprovoked.

[Kevin55]

.22 Mag is a pretty potent little round, its kind of like a mini .30 Carbine.

It penetrates similar to .32 Auto out of shorter barrels, out of 1"-2" I think it loses a LOT of punch and its debatable as to whether a .22 Mag out of a mini is that much more effective than a .22 LR Stinger or Velocitor out of the same barrel.  Kind of like .357 out of a snub barrel, a lot of the powder blows out unburned. Some people think the muzzle flash of a snub .357 or .22 Mag = power, but its just wasted powder burning outside the barrel.

If you watch the YouTube videos on Stinger and Velocitor gelatin penetration, the results are pretty impressive.

I would like to get a Pug and get a .22 LR cylinder fitted , and just carry it in that configuration.

I don't know if NAA still does semi custom stuff, I had wanted a Pug marked for .22 LR with a LR Black Widow cylinder fitted.

Here are my comments from a similar thread.  Similar to your conclusions, less than 2", there isn't much advantage with a 22mag.  The longer the barrel, the advantage of the 22mag shows up.

Graph
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/2013data/22magME.html
Data
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22mag.html

Pretty obvious that for the 22mag longer is better and Lenght has a huge affect from 2 to 8 inches, with 15-16" being the optimal.  Looks like 4" is almost double the energy of 2" barrels for 22mag.  Energy was ballpark close for 22mag, but varied greatly for 22lr.

For 2" barrel,  best energy
22lr.      70
22mag.  80

Generalization of charts
Cal.       2".      4".     16"
22lr.     65      95.      140
22mag. 70.   140.      320

My summation. 
For 2" barrel, looks like 22mag is not much of an improvement. 
22lr ammo selection is critical.
For 22mag,  barrel length improves energy greatly.

[TwoGunJayne]

Similar to this thread: naaminis.com/smf/index.php?topic=3700.msg58977

[theysayimnotme]

This would be a good example of the type of posts that could come back to bite you.

http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=625747

[gunfitrip]

The intent that was stated in the initial post is the lawful amount of force legally that can be used in a self defense situation. If an aggressor has been stopped in one round, for instance, is not lawful to continue firing until your weapon is empty. All of the statements made were referencing what a clever prosecutor might try.