Is keyholing normal?

[Lebowski3]

Hi All,

I recently purchased a NAA Mini in 22 Mag for my wife.  She wanted a laser so I put on a LaserLyte I purchased from Amazon.  I tried sighting it in but was having major problems getting it zeroed and it was keyholing every shot.  I assumed it was the keyholing that was causing the zeroing problem so I contacted NAA.  They had me send it in and put a new barrel on it (1 5/8" BTW).  Turns out the laser was defective so I had to get that replaced too.  Sooo...  I have a new properly functioning laser and a new barrel on it now.  Just tried it out again and I can get it to shoot great at 10 feet.  It's still keyholing though so when I try to shoot from anything further than 10 feet it starts to spray bullets in an ever increasing circle.  At 20 feet the spread is about a foot and a half.  This is unacceptable to me so I want to know if anyone else is experiencing the same issue.  I've read a few forums with people saying that's just the way these are but I've also seen videos of people shooting them with better results.
So now I'm wondering what the consensus is.  Is 10' the best I'm going to get out of this?  Should I send it back again for repair?  I've been using 40gr Winchester Super X ammo so should I try something else?  Is there something else that will stabilize better?

What to do???

[OLD and GRUMPY]

Welcome.

Sort of yes.

Look for one of the "short barrel" loads. The other guys will have brands for you.

Mini is a belly gun.  If you hit the bad guy with a key hole moving 1000 fps at 20'  it's a bad day for him.

Got to go to work.  KEEP POSTING.    Again welcome.   O&G

[Uncle Fatso]

Try seceral different types of ammo of varying bullet weights, the lighter weight bullets like a CCI  30 grain V-Max may not keyhole.

[RangerJim]

Welcome, Lebowski!
As O&G said, there are certain ammo brands that are specifically designed for short barrels--like we have on our NAA minis.  Two, in particular, seem to be at the very top of the heap:

   
• 22 WMR 45 gr FTX® Critical Defense®

   
• Speer GOLD DOT® SHORT BARREL® PERSONAL PROTECTION - RIMFIRE 22 WMR

They generally run about $14-15 a box of 50 (give or take), and you can do a search on these boards for ballistics tests and first hand accounts for each one.  Some say the heavier/longer bullets tend to keyhole more out of the short barrels than the lighter/shorter ones (eg., 45gr. vs. 40gr.).  I have personally used both, and it's ironic you mentioned keyholing.  I was at the range yesterday, and shot both of these rounds through several of my minis--Pug, Black Widow, etc.  In my first cylinder through my Pug, I had two keyholes out of 5 rounds.  That was with the Critical Defense.  I switched to the Gold Dots, and had no issues.  I also had no issues at all with my Black Widow--with either round.  In fact, the CDs may have been slightly more accurate out of the longer barrel of the BW than the Gold Dots--but that could have also been user incompetence ...   

At any rate, I've decided to carry--for now--Gold Dots in my Pug, and Critical Defense in my Black Widow.  That may change as I continue to play with these rounds and others.  Good luck!   

[redhawk4]

Does the crown of the barrel look OK?

[Lemon]

You said that the gun went back to NAA and they put a new barrel on it. I am sure they tested it before sending it back to you. They do a good look over any gun that is returned. I suggest shining a light down the barrel (with the cylinder taken off) and using a magnifying glass to look down the barrel. I think you will see that the grooves are filled with lead. This will make it keyhole. Some cheap bulk ammo will cause leading. My sidewinder shoots perfect. Now I did shoot some cheap 22LR ammo in it at the range one day and it leaded the barrel and yes, it did keyhole then. I cleaned the barrel and only shoot CCI in it and the barrel stays clean and there has been no more leading of the barrel and no more keyhole. So, check barrel, remove all lead from rifling and shoot CCI. See if that corrects your problem.  Take care and have a good day.

[redhawk4]

I meant to add that with a Laser sight, which should eliminate the possible vagaries of the small stock sights, you should be getting a tight group at 20 feet. I have a number of small pistols and at 7 yards (similar to your 20 feet) I would expect to be within 4 inches at that distance without massive effort put into accuracy, the focus being more toward some speed. I only have one pistol with a laser, a Sig 290RS, but if I try to be accurate and keep the laser on point of aim while pulling the long trigger pull, I can shoot a much tighter group than I can with the "iron sights" on the gun despite them being proper sized sights. I'd say under 2" all day, with the potential for some holes to be touching.

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems with a laser the group should be under 3 inches at 20 feet, 18" is well off the chart.

[zburkett]

Try CCI TNT

[Canoeal]

Try the gold dot, or hornady critical defense; I have never had those keyhole . If you can't find those (I believe they should be your carry rounds) then my third choice is CCI Maxi-Mag hp+v 30 grains. They also seem to work for me. IMHO it is the unburnt and still burning powder exiting the barrel with the bullet that causes some of the keyholing. Gold Dots and Hornady CD use faster burning, low flash powder that is designed to be used up . That being said, my NAA is a Black Widow.

[theysayimnotme]

I had a short MANY years ago that keyholed almost every shot at almost any range. When I looked down the barrel with a bright light I could not see any trace of rifling. The dealer I bought it from sent it back & after waiting for quite a long time he offered me a replacement .22 LR in exchange. Other than that one I haven't noticed any big problem with keyholing.
That was the same dealer that went out of business soon after that. He killed a hold up man & after that his homeboys started bothering his customers & their cars so he had to close up. The same thing happened to another dealer I used to go to.

[Ruger]

First, Welcome to the forum Lebowski3.  Great to have you.  We need those range reports, trials, failures, and tall stories.  Jump in often, oh, and we love pictures, too!

Second, listen to O&G:

. . . . .Mini is a belly gun. . . . .

If you purchased a mini and expect respectable groupings outside of three feet, you may be mistaken as to how a belly gun is used.

BTW, I get 1" groupings with any of my NAA Minis at 12", regardless of the ammo brand.

[WECSOG]

What brand and load of ammo is keyholing? Hornady FTX keyholes in my 1-5/8" Magnum, but that's a long bullet. Longer bullets need faster rifling twist. I haven't noticed any tumbling with 40 grain and lighter bullets.

[Warthog]

Welcome to the forum Lebowski3!!

I use Gold Dots and CCI magnums in general and never had a problem with keyholes.  At 20 feet they should not be keyholing.  You might want to ask the factory and see what they suggest.

[RangerJim]

What brand and load of ammo is keyholing? Hornady FTX keyholes in my 1-5/8" Magnum, but that's a long bullet. Longer bullets need faster rifling twist. I haven't noticed any tumbling with 40 grain and lighter bullets.

I agree, WECSOG.  That's consistent with my earlier post about the longer 45 grain Hornadys.  Again, I had no problems at all with the shorter 40 grains, so that's why I'll try to keep the Hornadys (45gr) for my longer barrels--2-inches and up--and the Gold Dots (40gr) for my smaller minis--less than 2-inches.

[franco22]

Welcome Lebowski3. I think you'll enjoy this forum. I just picked up the Gold Dots and Critical Defense but haven't tested either. I have had good luck with CCI Maxi-Mags in the past.

[kc]

First, Welcome to the forum Lebowski3.  Great to have you.  We need those range reports, trials, failures, and tall stories.  Jump in often, oh, and we love pictures, too!

Second, listen to O&G:

. . . . .Mini is a belly gun. . . . .

If you purchased a mini and expect respectable groupings outside of three feet, you may be mistaken as to how a belly gun is used.

BTW, I get 1" groupings with any of my NAA Minis at 12", regardless of the ammo brand.

LOL! Exactly! The smaller the gun & the shorter the barrel, the more of a "get off me!" weapon it's designed to be. As others have indicated, it has to do with bullet weight/length/velocity & rate of rifling twist... but, at contact-to-close range, a tipping (keyholing) bullet ain't a bad thing. Think of the bullet impacting sideways.
Back in the early 1900's, the Brits, wanting a round with less recoil (& requiring less training) than the .455 Eley, developed the 380-200 (.38 S&W, but with a 200 grain lead bullet at low velocity) which tended to tip upon impact, thus expending all it's energy in the target. From all I've read, it was pretty effective.
Years ago, my Dad & I worked up a low-velocity (maybe 700-750 fps) 200+ grain cast load for the .38 spl, which would (at 10 - 15 yards) impact a single paper target squarely - no tipping - but would then keyhole into a second paper target about 10" behind the first target. So it was stable until it hit something as thin as paper, then tumbled (keyholed). It was an effective, accurate, easy-to-shoot snubby load.

[redhawk4]

The heavier bullets would be harder to stabilize in the short barrel and because the Muzzle Velocity is slower they may be affected more by the blast of still burning powder that is following them as they leave the barrel. However to me it seems the 18" spread at 20 feet goes beyond just "normal" bullet tumbling.

[Dinadan]

Lebowski3 did not specify how he was shooting: freehand or from a rest. I would strongly recommend testing accuracy from a good rest before concluding that the problem is with the gun. I believe that many folks, even experienced shooters, have a problem just getting the shots on the target when they first try a Mini. It happened with me and I have seen it with others. If Lebowski3 is already shooting from a rest then my point is moot.

Regarding keyholing, I agree that some ammo is better than others. But when it comes to keyholing (tumbling) affecting accuracy at 20', I just do not think it would account for a foot and a half at 20'. I am not an expert by any means, but when I have some rounds keyholing and some not, there does not seen to be a big difference in the accuracy.

[Bigbird48]

I agree, key holing or not the bullets should land somewhere in the same vicinity of each other not spread all over the place  

Lebowski3 did not specify how he was shooting: freehand or from a rest. I would strongly recommend testing accuracy from a good rest before concluding that the problem is with the gun. I believe that many folks, even experienced shooters, have a problem just getting the shots on the target when they first try a Mini. It happened with me and I have seen it with others. If Lebowski3 is already shooting from a rest then my point is moot.

Regarding keyholing, I agree that some ammo is better than others. But when it comes to keyholing (tumbling) affecting accuracy at 20', I just do not think it would account for a foot and a half at 20'. I am not an expert by any means, but when I have some rounds keyholing and some not, there does not seen to be a big difference in the accuracy.

[JRobyn]

IMHO, it is very hard to NOT have some keyholing given the very short barrels of most NAAs and their "slight" rifling.  So it IS almost "normal".

As has been pointed out, the tendency can be minimized by several factors: 1) careful ammo selection for your particular gun. 2) making sure your barrel crown is very uniform. 3) keeping what rifling there is as clean as possible.

[redhawk4]

It seems to me 18" at 20 feet is also somewhat of a hazard, with the scope to hit something or someone you don't intend to. 18" at 20 feet would be 3" at 40' and so on assuming a straight, but angular path from the muzzle, if it's going in a curved path, then who knows where it's headed. If you miss your target, that's an awful big backdrop that needs to be clear of anything you don't want to hit at the time you fire.

[WECSOG]

Lebowski doesn't seem to have been back. I wonder if the nihilists got him? 

[RangerJim]

Hah!  Yeah, it's funny.  He asks the question ... and we talk amongst ourselves.   

[redhawk4]

The bullets were probably travelling in a curve, he tried hitting something at 20 yards and it boomeranged round on him. He'll be back once he's out of the ICU

[Uncle_Lee]

Hah!  Yeah, it's funny.  He asks the question ... and we talk amongst ourselves.   

I was reading through this thread and had come to the same conclusion.
We are happy talking to our selves.
Ask a question and we will answer it for a month even if the questioner has no reply.

[Bigbird48]

I think half the time people join a forum ask a question then go someplace else and forget all about the forum they joined or forgot their login info, or got the answer and refuse to participate 

[Lemon]

I had checked his status last Friday or maybe even Saturday and noticed he only came on and signed up posted question and had not returned. Shows around an hour and a half between joining and last visit. I was giving any reasonable doubt to him to be nice. Couple weeks ago I asked a question on here and then my computer died. Took me a week or more to buy another one. Oh well.  Gives me more time to ask a question and frees up other members time to answer, lol. Take care everyone and have a nice day!

[Dinadan]

I think, based on stats for another forum, that it is very common for a member to make only one post ever. Probably had a question they wanted answered and that was the only interest in joining. A lot of folks join and never make a single post.

[WECSOG]

Hah!  Yeah, it's funny.  He asks the question ... and we talk amongst ourselves.   

I was reading through this thread and had come to the same conclusion.
We are happy talking to our selves.
Ask a question and we will answer it for a month even if the questioner has no reply.

I've seen threads on some forums where a member asks a question, it turns into a popular discussion, and after awhile the OP comes back in saying something like, "Would you guys knock it off already? I already got my answer, and you guys are going far beyond what I even asked! Mods, please lock this thread!"
And then the OP gets an answer like this: "Hey, butt out! You got your answer? Fine, then go away and leave us alone!" 

[Canoeal]

Yeah, from their question to go from keyholing, to totally inaccurate shooting, to not here...did the problem even exist? When I used CCI Maxi Mag 40 gr and they keyholed 10 & 15 yds they still hit the target...

[Jobrando]

Many don't put there paper target over card board producing very fake key holes