22 Mag PUG for Mountain Lion Defense??

[top dog]

A friend's daughter was recently transferred from Guam to Colorado (USAF) and likes to run/hike the trails out there but is concerned about the mountain lions/cougars.
She will be getting her carry permit soon but cannot conceal a larger firearm on her small/petite frame.

Firearms are not permitted on USAF trails/property so if she did carry,it would have to be well under the radar.

Being that her Dad is former SWAT,she is firearms savvy.

I was thinking a PUG in 22 mag and a spare 22lr cylinder so she could practice often.

Any ideas/suggestions?

                                                                                             Top Dog

[OLD and GRUMPY]

Sounds good. Light but if that is all she can carry it will do. If the cat springs from cover even a 12ga won't help.

More important is what not to do.

   NO head phones. No day dreaming. You are on the cats turf. You are lunch.  Small, fast movement, high pitch voice triggers hunting instinct.

If confronted do not run. You wont make it. Face the cat. make your self BIG. Stomp , drop your voice to a low tone and yell. Carry a air horn can. That will surprise the cat and bring help.Chuck rocks, carry a rock in your hand as you run. Be loud as you run.

Happy running. They don't rely want you.

[heyjoe]

im not so sure a single action mini revolver would be the best thing to carry for that circumstance. By the time you cock that gun for the second shot the cat will be on you, if they arent already. For running, ultra concealment, and needing to be able to quickly make follow up shots, i think that a kel tec p32 would fit the bill much better being that it is very light...about 6.6 ounces, slim and holds 7+1, and is double action.

[zburkett]

I argue with myself over my mini with a floppy wobbler and my Ruger LCP with a belt clip.  They are close enough in size and weight that there is little carry difference.  Of course the Ruger .380 has more power than a .22 mag, but assuming modern, hi performance ammo I'm not sure there is that much more stopping power against a big cat.  It is shot placement that will count.  I am more accurate with my mini than with the LCP because of the double action trigger pull on the Ruger and the fact that I can put in the LR cylinder and practice a lot with the NAA.  The folding holster grip also gives a much better grip than the LCP.  Follow up shots are quicker with the LCP.  One big advantage to the NAA with holster grip is if someone sees it sticking out of my pocket they assume it is a lock back knife.

[PaducahMichael]

My advice is to always hike with a partner. Pick someone who is slower than you are.

[Uncle_Lee]

A Pug is better than a sharp stick.

Not as good as a slow hiking partner though.

[RogueTS1]

Mac 11 smg................... it is small enough and will take care of kitty.

[top dog]

I really like all of your suggestions. Having a slow hiker as a partner sounds pretty good but I really like the suggestions made by Old & Grumpy.

Seems pretty much to hit the nail on the head.  And yes,even a 12 ga might not have much of an effect on a charging cat.

It seems that these cats are 100+ lbs and always blindside attack. Even wary hikers said that the cats came from nowhere.

Maybe going to an LCP would not be that much bigger than a PUG and would pack more punch. But I will say that checking the wound ballistics with 22 mags is quite impressive as well.

                                                                                                            Top Dog

[cfsharry]

Just no way a .22 mag compares to .380 acp. Roughly 79.5 ft/lbs of energy vs 268 ft/lbs. that's from a 2"" barrel for the .22 mag and 3" for the .380. Colt, Kimber and Sig all make small, light, single action .380s that give you seven rounds of semi auto firepower. No question what I would choose but each to his/her own.
Also beg to differ on 12 ga. More than adequate for a one shot stop on a cat.

[top dog]

cfsharry,
I tend to agree with you on that. But the main concern is concealability. I will say that the LCP can really be hidden and maybe my nod would be in that direction.

A 12 ga loaded with #4 buck would certainly stop a cougar,again with good shot placement.

My buddy is out with his daughter now,and I will be interested in what they come up with.


                                                                                     Top Dog

[cfsharry]

That would be a good recommendation. Single action trigger is just my personal preference.
Tell her to practice, practice, practice.

[top dog]

cfsharry,
That is why I suggested that if she were to choose a 22 mag PUG to get the 22lr cylinder as well so she could practice often.

I would also suggest that the range be 10 ft or less with the efforts be directed to be able to quickly (and safely) draw and fire.

It will be interesting to see what they can come up with.

                                                                                            Top Dog

[Surculus]

Firearms are not permitted on USAF trails/property so if she did carry,it would have to be well under the radar.

I just came across reference to this same topic elsewhere, to the effect that "firearms are not permitted on U.S. military property outside of practice ranges for those who have not taken the required training & been approved to carry them." So it might just be a matter of a couple of extra layers of additional Def. Dept. bureaucracy and the approval of a base administrative officer [I forget the term, it's not the base commander, but the officer placed in charge of base administration: he (or she) has a particular title, I think he's the same guy I'd have to call to get approval for civilian access the beach at Camp Pendleton here on the left coast. Darn CRS, I hate losing my vocabulary just when I need it most!  ]

Anyway, if she can get approved to take the course & get approval [which *should* be attainable for an obvious need like "I'm just the right size for puma fodder!"] to carry on the trails, well, that's much better than getting caught for breaking the rules [dealings with Uncle Sugar being one of the few cases where permission is more forthcoming than forgiveness!]

She may still opt for the NAA for lightness while hiking, but that would then be up to her, not forced upon her due to having to sneak under the radar.

[seaotter]

As far as the adequacy of 22 ammo for mountain lions, I can remember reading an account several years ago about a little girl who got dragged off by a mountain lion. The family was desperate, naturally, so National Park employee borrowed a Ruger 22 lr pistol from a camper (who wasn't supposed to have it in a National Park at that time. He "forgot" it was in his camper until it was needed). Anyway, the Park employee took that 22 handgun, and tracked the mountain lion down (the girl was long dead by that time, unfortunately) and dispatched it with a single shot from the Ruger. Lessons learned: some national park employees have balls of steel; the woods can be dangerous; and a 22 is a lot more deadly than some people think!

[zburkett]

and it is a lot more deadly than nothing

[top dog]

I am surprised to hear that a park employee stepped up to the plate to dispatch the mountain lion.

I guess that a 22lr is a lot better than nothing.  Some folks do have good success with the 22 mag on the large but I guess that is when they are treed by the dogs and there is a clear shot to the chest.

                                                                                             Top Dog.

[seaotter]

If I remember the details correctly, there was a somewhat desperate search for the young girl taken, in the somewhat optimistic belief that she might still be alive. The park employee did not have access to a weapon, so he asked if any of the people present had anything he could use, thus proving that not all federal employees are brainless idiots (btw: yes, I know that most federal employees are smart hard working people who have to cope with an oppressive politically charged over-regulated environment. Thank you for your service!). 

[top dog]

Seaotter,
I agree with you on that.

It must have been quite a bad situation where it seemed no matter what was done,there would be no positive outcome.

Again,I salute the park person who came up to the plate to handle the situation as best as possible.

                                                                                                Top Dog

[top dog]

A couple of days ago,in a town north of me,three women were attacked by a Bobcat. The game wardens killed the Bobcat and it tested positive for rabies.

The women are now being treated with the rabies shots.

It is a shame  that none of those women had a NAA mini revolver on them and could use it properly.

Maybe that is why I have my PUG with me at all times.

                                                                                               Top Dog

[MtGoat]

If attacked by a mountain lion a Pug in the pocket is dead weight.
The best defense is a rapid defense.
Running with a baton and the willingness to use it rapidly would be the best defense.
The Pug in the pocket would be used after deflecting the initial attack.
If the cat didn't get a good hold on the back of your neck then beating the heck out of it's head and neck until it backed off would be the best defense.
You most likely won't see the cat with time to pull a firearm.
If you do then the Pug or any of the NAA's that you carry with all of the time are better than the stick.

Pat

[top dog]

Pat,
I agree with you there. Any attack by a mountain lion/cougar will be fast and furious.

Right now,in my area,the big problem is coyotes with 6 dogs being injured or killed by coyotes while they were being walked by their owners.

Last month three women were attacked by a bobcat that tested positive for rabies.

Yes,the arguments of 22 mag versus 380 will always go on like the 9mm vs 45acp debate but the beauty of the Minis is that they can always be with you.

Just my opinion.

                                                                                                Top Dog

[zburkett]

Top dog, a minor disagreement. I replaced a Ruger LCP with a mini because I am much more accurate with the mini.  For human sized targets the LCP is great.  My most common target is a snake and it is hard to be snake head accurate with the long trigger pull on the LCP.  At other times its like us old guys say, "A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44"

[seaotter]

I can shoot my BW FAR more accurately than my TCP. My 22lr mini? Not so much. The sights are just too hard to see with my overages eyes.

[OV-1D]

  Aiming better not be a requirement in quick start situations or your dinner for sure .

[top dog]

OV-1D,
I agree with that for sure. And for those that have a problem with seeing sights on their minis,I cured that problem with replacing the front sight with a nice big bead shotgun sight.  No need to do that on the PUG though as it has a nice set of XS sights.

My favorite practice target distance is 8-10 ft MAX.  I try to get speed and accuracy.

Key to it,at least for me,is to get to practice often.

                                                                                      Top Dog

[NavyVet1959]

If you try running away from a mountain lion, you are probably going to lose unless you have a good head start.  They can leap up to 40 ft horizontally and up to 15 ft into a tree.  They can run as fast at 50 mph for short sprints, but can travel at 10 mph for many miles.  I'm too old and crippled up to try running from something, so I would just have to stand and fight.

If you are on a bicycle, then remember that the bicycle could be used as a weapon / shield.  You don't have to *defeat* the animal, you just need to make him think that there is easier prey elsewhere.

I grew up on a ranch and sometimes, we would have a cow that needed to be put down.  A .22LR can kill a cow easily and you won't even get a twitch if you put the bullet in the right place.  As we always say, "shot placement is everything".  But it's one thing to be putting down a cow that can't even walk and is just laying there vs trying to shoot a mountain lion that it leaping towards you.

If I was somewhere that I had to worry about mountain lions, I would carry the same thing I carry as a backup when hog hunting -- a 10mm w/ a 220 gr WFN cast bullet load that generated around 747 ft-lbs.

[NavyVet1959]

Now, *if* you are wanting ultimate concealability, a firearm that handles that 10mm load is not going to be it.  Although the NAA mini-revolver is more concealble, the Beretta 21A if nearly as concealable and it would be better for getting multiple shots off quickly.  Surprisingly, they are pretty accurate.

If you just *have* to go with the NAA mini-revolver though, another option is to use .22 caliber power loads (like the nail guns use) and then manually seat a cast lead bullet in the cylinder.  I've done some testing on this and you are basically creating something similar to a cap-and-ball firearm, but with a .22 blank in place of the "cap".  For bullets, I use 55gr pure lead bullets cast from the Lee .225" "Bator" mold.  The level #2 (brown) power loads will give you the equivalent of one of the hyper velocity rounds or maybe a .22 mag.

FYI -- according to SAAMI, the .22LR and .22 mag both have exactly the same max chamber pressure allowed.

[top dog]

Navyvet,
That is interesting but I would still prefer to using the regular factory ammo.

My luck,I would load the stuff wrong and it would not work when I needed it the most!!!!

                                                                 Top Dog

[OLD and GRUMPY]

I grew up in "cat country" . Cat ,bear, diamond backs and sick critters not acting normal. (then there are the ghetto rats)

Any encounter will be at short range, lightning fast. You will not be paying close enough attention.

If the gun is not in your hand like you were taking point on patrol then .22 or .44 mag won't matter. You are done. 

Remember P22 on his kill?  (all in the big city) Those are my old stomping grounds.
-------
If this was a old west shoot out and the butt plug on the bike had "Mini"  in a holster when the cat twitches who wins?

[NavyVet1959]

Navyvet,
That is interesting but I would still prefer to using the regular factory ammo.

My luck,I would load the stuff wrong and it would not work when I needed it the most!!!!

                                                                 Top Dog

Well, it's not like you are going to be able to reload a NAA mini-revolver in an emergency situation and even if you did want to, then take regular .22LR / .22 mag ammo for the reloads.  The nail gun blanks with the cast bullets would just be for the first 5 shots.  Might as well make those first 5 shots count since it's not likely you'll be able to reload and shoot again.

Now, if NAA would just make a min-revolver with thicker cylinder walls that were thick enough to handle *any* of the power loads on the market with up to a 70 gr bullet...

Of course, the problem is that with that short of a barrel, it would be difficult to get a really high velocity regardless of the size of power loads you are using.  I wonder what it would take to get a 70 gr bullet to do 2000 fps out of that short of a barrel...

[OLD and GRUMPY]

The recoil would be so bad you would not get back on target for a fast second shot. That is if you don't go up in a ball of shrapnel.

[NavyVet1959]

The recoil would be so bad you would not get back on target for a fast second shot. That is if you don't go up in a ball of shrapnel.

Well, I can get a 40 gr going 2000 fps in a M1911 (RIA .22 TCM) and the recoil is pretty tame.  I suspect that to get a 70 gr going at 2000 fps in as short of a barrel as the NAA, you would end up with rather thick cylinder walls (assuming that there is even a powder available that is fast enough to get 70 gr up to that velocity in that short of a distance).

I think there might be a bit of muzzle flash though...

[top dog]

Navy,
I am quite sure that there would be a significant muzzle flash out of a Mini with that load!!!! Probably would stir fry the mountain lion at the same time.

                                                                                                Top Dog

[RogueTS1]

I think they call that a flame thrower in technical terms........................

[OV-1D]

  Sounds like a accident waiting to happen to me . Oh that's just an opinion mind ya .